Huguenot Park - Your access today!

[JettyDog]

and...I questioned your care and/or love of birds, when?

Springfielder, you are right. That was primarily directed towards If_I_Loved_You, but , you didn't answer my question. Instead, you chose to duck it by asking another question. I'll ask again: What have you done for the birds out there lately,  like that? It's simple to answer, either something or nothing. I'm just asking......

I'm not sure what my involvement with birds is of your concern, as I have not asked for your credentials. However, I am and always have been an advocate for wildlife, which of course, includes birds.

I'm an avid birder, am also active in many organizations and am personally involved in maintaining bird habitats, including one at an elementary school, in which the students in the autistic program are directly involved with the daily care and maintenance of the habitat. My program/habitat was recognized by Cornell University's Ornithology Department and received national exposure, as well as local media recognition.

Springfielder, I just wanted to assure myself you were actively involved, hands on, with the birds as I was, and not politically using them as a crutch or a tool to advance an agenda that included acquisition of lands/habitats for personal or organizational gain. Since you are an avid birder, then, you must agree, that protecting the birds at Huguenot is harmful due to the emissions of cargo/container/tanker ships entering the St. Johns, and , as a result of that , you would agree, in my opinion,  that relocation of the birds to a safer habitat, such as Bird Island, or the Talbot Islands,  would be in the best interest of the birds, overall.  After all, the protection of the birds is the goal, no matter what the cost, wouldn't you agree? Surely Cornell University would approve as well as the local media, and , I would think, would be a feather in your cap. But, I could be wrong. Your thoughts on the matter?

[Know Growth]

Human access to the north section of Hugenot is there.Simply vehicle restrictions.No doubt more of an inconvenience to some more than most.Actually a human recreation experience plus.Even Life Guard Station protection!

And the birds.Gosh,like being at an ocean beach!

Many of us humans have benefited from the Huguenot non vehicle access experience.
We have also learned how credible,important the area between dunes and water is for the critters.Could win a court case with that info.
Good for us!

[Springfielder]

Springfielder, I just wanted to assure myself you were actively involved, hands on, with the birds as I was, and not politically using them as a crutch or a tool to advance an agenda that included acquisition of lands/habitats for personal or organizational gain. Since you are an avid birder, then, you must agree, that protecting the birds at Huguenot is harmful due to the emissions of cargo/container/tanker ships entering the St. Johns, and , as a result of that , you would agree, in my opinion,  that relocation of the birds to a safer habitat, such as Bird Island, or the Talbot Islands,  would be in the best interest of the birds, overall.  After all, the protection of the birds is the goal, no matter what the cost, wouldn't you agree? Surely Cornell University would approve as well as the local media, and , I would think, would be a feather in your cap. But, I could be wrong. Your thoughts on the matter?

Of course there's concern about the emissions from the ships, just as there is from all other vehicles. Trying to relocate birds is not only costly, but most often, not practical. It's not like you can simply give them a map to the location that's deemed more safe. The react on instinct, and trying to train migratory birds where to nest is basically futile. This is why areas in which they do nest, are protected during nesting season.

[JettyDog]

Springfielder, I just wanted to assure myself you were actively involved, hands on, with the birds as I was, and not politically using them as a crutch or a tool to advance an agenda that included acquisition of lands/habitats for personal or organizational gain. Since you are an avid birder, then, you must agree, that protecting the birds at Huguenot is harmful due to the emissions of cargo/container/tanker ships entering the St. Johns, and , as a result of that , you would agree, in my opinion,  that relocation of the birds to a safer habitat, such as Bird Island, or the Talbot Islands,  would be in the best interest of the birds, overall.  After all, the protection of the birds is the goal, no matter what the cost, wouldn't you agree? Surely Cornell University would approve as well as the local media, and , I would think, would be a feather in your cap. But, I could be wrong. Your thoughts on the matter?

Of course there's concern about the emissions from the ships, just as there is from all other vehicles. Trying to relocate birds is not only costly, but most often, not practical. It's not like you can simply give them a map to the location that's deemed more safe. The react on instinct, and trying to train migratory birds where to nest is basically futile. This is why areas in which they do nest, are protected during nesting season.

And , now, Springfielder, we have a meaningful dialogue. I have researched the  ship emissions. Some of the ships emit more emissions than the vehicles do. These are the facts. And you are right, relocation is costly, but not impossible. Other Federal agencies have done so when necessary. That is another fact as well as the nesting issue. So, a compromise is in order here. We share the beach and dunes with the birds. Mutual respect is the order of the day.  No one entity can be allowed to be dominant. Neither bird nor human. It's called co-existence and has been in place for thousands of years. But getting folks to recognize that is difficult when some people are stubborn and narrow minded or selfish. When we were children, our parents taught us to share when in the sand box or at the playground. Why have we lost that lesson? It is time to re-learn the lessons our parents taught us. Share. It's simple in concept. And everyone could and will benefit from it. Share. There is room for all, bird lovers as well as kite surfers, surfers, kayakers, jet-skiers and the simple beach patrons at Huguenot. After all, some of us that others consider to be nuisances, obstacles  or anti-birders are helping in our own way with the birds, such as myself. Share.

[JettyDog]

"deadly carcinogens spewing from the cargo/tanker/container ships entering the River at Mayport/Huguenot" Jetty Dog this is pure doublespeak. The best thing to do in saving the birds and other animals at Huguenot is to remove all people and vehicles from the beach. Thank You If_I_Loved_You

Doublespeak? From experts in their respective fields? I did some independent research on the matter before I spoke about it or posted it here.


http://www.gizmag.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution

I posted this previously and you may have missed it. The "doublespeak " you are attributing to me is well documented in the above websites. Are you saying the experts are wrong? Or lying about the environmental impact of these ships? Or , possibly, are you ignoring the experts in order to advance your agenda of throwing everyone and their vehicles off the beach in order make Huguenot a private, members only preserve for birders?  When folks close their minds and bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich, it really is impossible to communicate anything to them. Would you be willing to tell these folks who wrote these articles or contributed to the research that they are engaging in "doublespeak"? I prefer to consider all angles and tend to trust the experts.

Here is more info:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/13/climatechange.pollution

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

(please note that the above article quotes James Corbett, of the University of Delaware, is an authority on ship emissions )

Even Lloyd's of London recognizes the issue of ship emissions, although, many countries are working on making the emissions greener as they are with automobiles.

http://www.lloydslist.com/ll/topic/emissions/

There is a ton of research available on the Web on how ship emissions are harmful to the environment as well as the animal life. How can anyone possibly ignore the facts?

[BridgeTroll]

Hey jetty and kitester...

Can you post some pix of the kite surfers doing your thing out at Huguenot.  I certainly would like to see them...

[Know Growth]

This entire thread as if sucked out by gigantic undertoe, in to the far Gulf  Stream,ever farther north,now east,chilling cold waters,now 'tossed',like stale salad on to the brutal (mostly rocky,hard to walk on) war torn French shore line.

From the shores of France,Jacksonville's beaches would be assumed to be so fine.And they are.We don't know what a real battle is,or about.

For the birds;human foot access. Concrete Retreat from the shore. (Dr.Pilkey)   Us

[JettyDog]

Bridge, I'm not a kitesurfer, Kitester could probably help you out better there.

[BridgeTroll]

Bridge, I'm not a kitesurfer, Kitester could probably help you out better there.

Thanks jetty... I drove past on A1A last saturday and the place looked pretty busy... lotsa kites!

[JettyDog]

"deadly carcinogens spewing from the cargo/tanker/container ships entering the River at Mayport/Huguenot" Jetty Dog this is pure doublespeak. The best thing to do in saving the birds and other animals at Huguenot is to remove all people and vehicles from the beach. Thank You If_I_Loved_You

Doublespeak? From experts in their respective fields? I did some independent research on the matter before I spoke about it or posted it here.


http://www.gizmag.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution

I posted this previously and you may have missed it. The "doublespeak " you are attributing to me is well documented in the above websites. Are you saying the experts are wrong? Or lying about the environmental impact of these ships? Or , possibly, are you ignoring the experts in order to advance your agenda of throwing everyone and their vehicles off the beach in order make Huguenot a private, members only preserve for birders?  When folks close their minds and bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich, it really is impossible to communicate anything to them. Would you be willing to tell these folks who wrote these articles or contributed to the research that they are engaging in "doublespeak"? I prefer to consider all angles and tend to trust the experts.

Here is more info:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/13/climatechange.pollution

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

(please note that the above article quotes James Corbett, of the University of Delaware, is an authority on ship emissions )

Even Lloyd's of London recognizes the issue of ship emissions, although, many countries are working on making the emissions greener as they are with automobiles.

http://www.lloydslist.com/ll/topic/emissions/

There is a ton of research available on the Web on how ship emissions are harmful to the environment as well as the animal life. How can anyone possibly ignore the facts?

Jetty dog I have read most of your links before you posted them. But just like Springfielder said "Trying to relocate birds is not only costly, but most often, not practical." Look I would be OK with letting people have space towards the jetty's for sunbathing and fishing on the jetty's. But No vehicles allowed so a new bike and walking path should be built towards that area of the beach. And make it so handicap people can make it out towards the beach also via the path. But leave the whole other area for the birds and wildlife. Jacksonville Fl is a port city we can not close the st johns river down for one minute. And Jaxport in the next several years is even going to get bigger. So it's up to the future engineers to build ships that use better fuel with less emissions. Now if Willard Mitt Romney gets into office God I hope not! The EPA and other federal agencies are screwed. And ship and car emissions will get even worst. So lets make sure Obama wins and the birds and wildlife have a bigger place to call home at Huguenot park. Thank You

If_I_Loved_You,
      You misconstrue my point. The ships emit more emissions than all of the automobiles at Huguenot. The cars out there are more emission's than the ships and doing less harm to the birds, as a result. These are the absolute stone-cold facts, please do the research yourself.
     As far as handicap access is concerned, will you volunteer to carry those handicapped folks who cannot make the trip from anywhere you designate parking, down to the shore? After all, many are not in wheel chairs and have to use other types of mobility, such as crutches like those with polio or multiple sclerosis? Someone on crutches will struggle to make it from where ever , such as the existing parking lot, to the beach, via bike/walking path or not. A simple bike path/walking path will not suffice for these unfortunate folks. They must have auto access. And what about kayakers who cannot carry their boats down a path. And what of jet skiers? Would you have them physically carry their jet skis down the same path? Really? Not practical at any level.
      Then , again , you raise the question of costs. How much do you propose to spend of the tax payers money and the city's money (which we do not have ) to build this bike/walking path to give the birds their space and accommodate ALL of the beach patrons? And why are you dictating, that , we , the people, must subscribe to what you want for all of us? I propose coexistence for all.
     As far as the politics you choose to inject into the conversation, I shall remain neutral . You brought up the subject , not I , as a ploy to gain votes for one particular candidate, while, I believe,the best man will win based on what he claims he can do, overall, for the entire country, not just for one special interest group.

[kitester]

If......

It is unfortunate that the environmental lobby is not truly of a mind of coexistence. There have been many areas closed off for birds and other wildlife. Once closed they are extremely difficult if not impossible to reopen to public use even if the reasons given for the closure no longer exist. Do you think the lost public access in Hatteras NC. will ever reopen even if the piping plover comes off the endangered list? The trend is to remove the public permanently. Look at what has happened at the park already. Pet owners are not allowed to bring pets to the park at all YEAR ROUND! Why is that? It was never a problem before the colony of birds began nesting at the north point. It was not a problem for the birds or the public. Even now critical wildlife activity only takes place in the spring and summer. Why can't dog owners come to the park in the off season? Because it was bargained away by our city council in return for it being the FINAL concession to the bird lobby. What did the bird lobby do and have continued todo since then? They pushed to closed 1500feet of the front beach between the point and jetty. They pushed to close the point permanently to both cars AND PEOPLE.  They push to close all driving access along the inside shoreline. In short they want to remove ALL driving access from the park. They know that will close the park forever. It will become a posted, off limits area an our city will have lost the last true beach access we have. I have been to EVERY public meeting and listened to members of the audbon and  sierra club. There is no other explanation for their continued efforts. The professional lobbyists working for those organizations an ones like them that make a living from the controversy continue to push fo more controversy.

[BridgeTroll]

If......

It is unfortunate that the environmental lobby is not truly of a mind of coexistence. There have been many areas closed off for birds and other wildlife. Once closed they are extremely difficult if not impossible to reopen to public use even if the reasons given for the closure no longer exist. Do you think the lost public access in Hatteras NC. will ever reopen even if the piping plover comes off the endangered list? The trend is to remove the public permanently. Look at what has happened at the park already. Pet owners are not allowed to bring pets to the park at all YEAR ROUND! Why is that? It was never a problem before the colony of birds began nesting at the north point. It was not a problem for the birds or the public. Even now critical wildlife activity only takes place in the spring and summer. Why can't dog owners come to the park in the off season? Because it was bargained away by our city council in return for it being the FINAL concession to the bird lobby. What did the bird lobby do and have continued todo since then? They pushed to closed 1500feet of the front beach between the point and jetty. They pushed to close the point permanently to both cars AND PEOPLE.  They push to close all driving access along the inside shoreline. In short they want to remove ALL driving access from the park. They know that will close the park forever. It will become a posted, off limits area an our city will have lost the last true beach access we have. I have been to EVERY public meeting and listened to members of the audbon and  sierra club. There is no other explanation for their continued efforts. The professional lobbyists working for those organizations an ones like them that make a living from the controversy continue to push fo more controversy.

Good about time! kitesurfer you and jetty dog are truly unreal get over yourself. Please come to the meetings and voice your one sided thinking. I welcome you to come to all the meetings. Maybe we can leave an area for you to destroy and screw the birds and wildlife! 

I really do not think he is saying he wants to destroy the habitat and screw the birds.  His mother taught him that sharing is a good thing... and cannot understand why the Audobon and their lobbyists cannot share.  Birds and humans coexist all the time... limiting human access during hatching or breeding or migration is reasonable... also reasonable is re opening those areas after the birds are gone... or done reproducing... or migrating.

[BridgeTroll]

If......

It is unfortunate that the environmental lobby is not truly of a mind of coexistence. There have been many areas closed off for birds and other wildlife. Once closed they are extremely difficult if not impossible to reopen to public use even if the reasons given for the closure no longer exist. Do you think the lost public access in Hatteras NC. will ever reopen even if the piping plover comes off the endangered list? The trend is to remove the public permanently. Look at what has happened at the park already. Pet owners are not allowed to bring pets to the park at all YEAR ROUND! Why is that? It was never a problem before the colony of birds began nesting at the north point. It was not a problem for the birds or the public. Even now critical wildlife activity only takes place in the spring and summer. Why can't dog owners come to the park in the off season? Because it was bargained away by our city council in return for it being the FINAL concession to the bird lobby. What did the bird lobby do and have continued todo since then? They pushed to closed 1500feet of the front beach between the point and jetty. They pushed to close the point permanently to both cars AND PEOPLE.  They push to close all driving access along the inside shoreline. In short they want to remove ALL driving access from the park. They know that will close the park forever. It will become a posted, off limits area an our city will have lost the last true beach access we have. I have been to EVERY public meeting and listened to members of the audbon and  sierra club. There is no other explanation for their continued efforts. The professional lobbyists working for those organizations an ones like them that make a living from the controversy continue to push fo more controversy.

Good about time! kitesurfer you and jetty dog are truly unreal get over yourself. Please come to the meetings and voice your one sided thinking. I welcome you to come to all the meetings. Maybe we can leave an area for you to destroy and screw the birds and wildlife! 

I really do not think he is saying he wants to destroy the habitat and screw the birds.  His mother taught him that sharing is a good thing... and cannot understand why the Audobon and their lobbyists cannot share.  Birds and humans coexist all the time... limiting human access during hatching or breeding or migration is reasonable... also reasonable is re opening those areas after the birds are gone... or done reproducing... or migrating.

BridgeTroll when it comes to the environment I'm not a real fan of sharing. When we humans have screwed up so much in such little time. Do we need every square inch of beach for are pleasure? I'm really in favor for closing 100% of Huguenot Park forever just for the birds and wildlife at the beach and dune area. But then I said I can bend, how about No vehicles on the beach at all and the beach near the jetty's would be open for people. With a new walkway to be built so the fishermen and beach people can walk in with beach carts and the like.

How generous!  You realize the Huguenot Park beach area and the associated jetties are man made structures... I suppose we could add another man made structure in the form of a giant parking lot in the dunes area and build a walkway to the beach...

[BridgeTroll]

If......

It is unfortunate that the environmental lobby is not truly of a mind of coexistence. There have been many areas closed off for birds and other wildlife. Once closed they are extremely difficult if not impossible to reopen to public use even if the reasons given for the closure no longer exist. Do you think the lost public access in Hatteras NC. will ever reopen even if the piping plover comes off the endangered list? The trend is to remove the public permanently. Look at what has happened at the park already. Pet owners are not allowed to bring pets to the park at all YEAR ROUND! Why is that? It was never a problem before the colony of birds began nesting at the north point. It was not a problem for the birds or the public. Even now critical wildlife activity only takes place in the spring and summer. Why can't dog owners come to the park in the off season? Because it was bargained away by our city council in return for it being the FINAL concession to the bird lobby. What did the bird lobby do and have continued todo since then? They pushed to closed 1500feet of the front beach between the point and jetty. They pushed to close the point permanently to both cars AND PEOPLE.  They push to close all driving access along the inside shoreline. In short they want to remove ALL driving access from the park. They know that will close the park forever. It will become a posted, off limits area an our city will have lost the last true beach access we have. I have been to EVERY public meeting and listened to members of the audbon and  sierra club. There is no other explanation for their continued efforts. The professional lobbyists working for those organizations an ones like them that make a living from the controversy continue to push fo more controversy.

Good about time! kitesurfer you and jetty dog are truly unreal get over yourself. Please come to the meetings and voice your one sided thinking. I welcome you to come to all the meetings. Maybe we can leave an area for you to destroy and screw the birds and wildlife! 

I really do not think he is saying he wants to destroy the habitat and screw the birds.  His mother taught him that sharing is a good thing... and cannot understand why the Audobon and their lobbyists cannot share.  Birds and humans coexist all the time... limiting human access during hatching or breeding or migration is reasonable... also reasonable is re opening those areas after the birds are gone... or done reproducing... or migrating.

BridgeTroll when it comes to the environment I'm not a real fan of sharing. When we humans have screwed up so much in such little time. Do we need every square inch of beach for are pleasure? I'm really in favor for closing 100% of Huguenot Park forever just for the birds and wildlife at the beach and dune area. But then I said I can bend, how about No vehicles on the beach at all and the beach near the jetty's would be open for people. With a new walkway to be built so the fishermen and beach people can walk in with beach carts and the like.

How generous!  You realize the Huguenot Park beach area and the associated jetties are man made structures... I suppose we could add another man made structure in the form of a giant parking lot in the dunes area and build a walkway to the beach...

Not at all Bridge Troll the added parking would be controlled and limited to only the amount of people that could use the jettys and small beach area. Have you been to Huguenot Park? The parking is made up with shells and the old dunes themselves. The so called campground area could be turned into more natural parking for the beach and jetty people. http://www.coj.net/departments/parks-and-recreation/recreation-and-community-programming/huguenot-memorial-park/huguenot-park-map.aspx look at this map. The only area I would want for people would be near the jettys and the "No Motorized Watercraft Area" a natural or concrete path with little or no damage to the beach itself were the vehicles drive to the beach today would be built. People could be allowed to drop off there friend's and fishing gear closer to the new walkway. So they wouldn't have to walk from the New campground parking area. And then those drivers could be picked up by an GOLF CART ELECTRIC SHUTTLE and be taken down to their friends and family. So BridgeTroll when you say we would have to build Another Giant Parking Lot you're just blowing smoke.

Been there many times... it is a great place for humans and birds... they co exist very well...

The "so called" camping area... is... in fact... a camping area.  Golf cart electric shuttle?  Really?  How 'bout a monorail?

What say you about the fact that the entire area we are talking about is man made?

[JettyDog]

If_I_Loved_You,
     Since you propose to get rid of the automobiles, what do you propose to do about the ships and their pollutants, which, are far more environmentally damageing to the birds than the cars? What is your plan for them?

Also,Labor Day weekend, I witnessed a 4 wheel drive truck pull out onto the beach with an electric wheelchair in the back, which the occupants unloaded for an elderly man to sit in. I have pictures of  it. Are you proposing to load up those electric wheelchairs on those same electric golf carts and take them and their occupants over to the beach on a (man-made) concrete walkway? We should not be  discriminating against the handicapped, in my opinion. They want to enjoy the birds and the beach as well as we able folks.

Huguenot is dredge spoil from the St. John's put there by the Army Corps of Engineers when they dredged the River for the Mayport Naval Base, I believe. Therefore, man-made.

So, you are proposing to clutter up Nature with more man-made items like bike paths, concrete walkways and such? Sorry, I prefer not to clutter it up more than it already is. I used to come out to Huguenot when it was only 4 Wheel Drive accessible, and , therefore, more natural than it currently is.  I preferred it that way. But since, I cannot have it that way, I'll settle for the current situation. Co-existence with the birds is the only reasonable option. There really are no others of merit.