Huguenot Park - Your access today!

[Dog Walker]

Liar, liar pants on fire!!!

Well, well Kitester if the facts don't work you just lie!

Guess you didn't think that another person connected with MetroJax would be at that meeting where Audubon and Sierra spoke and that you could get away with making up quotes out of thin air.

Maybe you were upset that the people running the meeting got tired of your rambling, inaccurate statements and the representative of the National Parks Dept. verbally spanked your ass.  Good for her!

The representative of the Sierra club did not say what you quoted.  She spoke of the possibility of combining all three ecological areas, Huguenot, the Talbots and the Timuquan Preserve into a wonderful attraction.  She praised the planning process that allowed all points of view to be heard and said that their were a lot of different ideas out there to be heard.  She said that we should quit fighting about this little area and look at a bigger possibility including the possibility that there would be a way to provide access to all of these areas without requiring beach driving.

Everyone on this forum should now know that you are a liar and deliberately misrepresent what other people say to attempt to push your own agenda.  Shame on you.

[BridgeTroll]

How does this...

"Because the areas of Talbot Island State Park and the Timuquan Preserve are so lovely we support the closure of Huguenot Memorial Park.  We want to close the entire park to all vehicular traffic in all areas of the park". We want the city to consider the possibility of complete vehicle restrictions because we want the area to be a world class natural area.

and this...

She said that we should quit fighting about this little area and look at a bigger possibility including the possibility that there would be a way to provide access to all of these areas without requiring beach driving.

Make kitester a liar?

[Dog Walker]

"Because the areas of Talbot Island State Park and the Timuquan Preserve are so lovely we support the closure of Huguenot Memorial Park.

Yes.  A typical lawyer's trick of omitting context and selectively quoting stuff to distort a full position.

Audubon and Sierra have made no secret of their wish to close PARTS of the park to cars at certain TIMES of the year to protect the wildlife.  It is a lie to say that they want ALL of the park closed or for the park to be completely closed as he tried to inply.

Kitester and Scott Shine just don't want to be inconvenienced in their hobbies by having to restrict their activities in any way.  Spoiled brats!  So they are just trying to create a big, bad boogeyman, "They want to CLOSE the park!", so that they won't have to walk to where they want to play.

The Parks people, National and City, the State people and the Corps people, who are all involved in this privately think that they are both buffoons and laugh at them in private.

[kitester]

Dog walker,
I understand that you are upset but please don't call names. The facts do speak for themselves. It is the ultimate agenda of these groups to limit the access of the park until there will be no reason for the city to support or maintain the park. That is established fact supported over and over again by the continued efforts of the Audubon and, now it seams, the Sierra Club. If you support these permanent closures that is fine. I do not. There is no real reason for it and nothing to be gained by removing 95% of the people that enjoy the park. That is exactly what the Sierra Club member advocated at this meeting. To be completely correct she said that she wanted the city to consider the possibility of closing the park to all vehicle access year round. That is a fact. That is what they want and there is no denying it. Further more the National Parks Representative did not "spank my ass" (personally I think you should adopt a more civil attitude) about anything. I saw and felt no directed animosity from anyone in the room. To which question do you refer? Also, I did not get a satisfactory answer to my question. When she proposed that the city consider complete closure to all cars I asked how and where the the 400,000 or so patrons park and how they would be able to access the beach areas. Do you have any ideas or do you just want to call names and blow smoke? This is not a pissing match and I stand by what I said. The question still stands too. Either you answer the question with a real solution or the only other alternative is to be emotional and irrational. We would think it great to have a paved road all the way to the north point with a large parking lot there. Or take some of the preserve on the other side and convert it to parking and provide a carrier service to the beach. None of us mind a walk and having a place without cars would be fine. But explain why we need to close areas of the park permanently again 'cause I just don't get it.   

It has been said from the beginning that Florida Open Beaches would be happy to support the ban on beach driving at Huguenot Park if appropriate access could be provided and sustained without it. Where would you build the 5000 parking space lot and who will fund the trams to the beach front? All of this should be a compromise but even after the city complied with nearly all the Huguenot Park Management Plans requirements (completed in six months instead of 10 years) the environmental lobby still pushes forward with an agenda that disenfranchises the people of this city. You clearly want to make the park a wildlife refuge instead of what it is, a man made place for human recreation. There is no reason that the birds and people can't coexist in close proximity and in huge numbers. I have yet to see any instance of real fact that suggests that we must turn the park over to the birds only. Furthermore the tried and proven protections are already in place and extremely effective. Believe me I know. Who do you think was the first person to alert the park management to the fledgling birds spilling onto the beach?

And as to the "trick" of omission..... Let me remind you that the Audubon has systematically omitted, misstated and misrepresented  the facts concerning not only their own agenda but also about the birds they claim to represent. Not one single species commonly found within the park is endangered or even threatened. That is a fact that is consistently over looked. I suggest you check your facts.Ii suggest you backup and take a deep breath, calm down and try to find a solution that does not involve further restrictions or closures or lost access. I submit that every thing that needs to be done has been. Stick to the plan don't try to make deals to swap out or bargain for more. Also since you have named Scott tell us who you are.

Your last point doesn't deserve comment.       
       

[urbanlibertarian]

After filtering through all the name calling I would prefer to see Huguenot Memorial Park continue exactly as it is now.

[Shine]

"Because the areas of Talbot Island State Park and the Timuquan Preserve are so lovely we support the closure of Huguenot Memorial Park.

Kitester and Scott Shine just don't want to be inconvenienced in their hobbies by having to restrict their activities in any way.  Spoiled brats!  So they are just trying to create a big, bad boogeyman, "They want to CLOSE the park!", so that they won't have to walk to where they want to play.

The Parks people, National and City, the State people and the Corps people, who are all involved in this privately think that they are both buffoons and laugh at them in private.

For the record, a person indicating they represented "Sierra Club" did make a comment to the effect that they wanted to see "all vehicles removed from Huguenot Park."  Next, I make no apology that I want to preserve public access to lands owned by the people of Florida.  Huguenot Memorial Park, was deeded to the state for the written, expressed purpose of providing a recreation area for the public.  Yes, I do want to preserve access to this park so I can use the beach and waters as I have for recreation for more than 20 years.  Last year, more than 400,000 people visited this park.  That's more than attended regular season home games of the Jacksonville Jaguars.  This is an important recreational outlet for beach access, where that access around the state has been constantly reduced over the years.

As for the insults, its easy to be brave when you can hurl stones when no one knows who you are.  If all these people you claim have a negative view of who I am, or what I do, so be it.  I am neither afraid or ashamed to put my name on what I do or what I stand for.

[kitester]

Step,

There are plenty of web sites with factual information about the bird species found at the park. Try Cornell University's "all about birds" also the International union for the conservation of wildlife has hard fact about many species.

The Audubon has touted over and over again the following species as either endangered, threatened or at risk from human activity in the park.

Red Knot
Royal Tern
Least Tern
Willson's Plover
Simiplamated Plover
American Oystercatcher
Piping Plover

[kitester]

hum....I wonder if there is a comprehensive history of the area. I have seen original pre jetty maps. the area did not exist as a sand bar but was more like area behind the bridge in those surveys. Where the park is now was water at that time. I have heard that the center of the park had a resort and housing at one time and that the area was used for marine commerce by the areas plantations like the one located on Ft. George Island. After the jetty was placed the southward flow of sand was stopped and began to build up. The low lying sand bars were  used for all sorts of activities including horse back riding, dune buggies fishing and swimming. At some point the Army Corps performed a compaction process to stop the water from passing through the area now known as the camp ground. This further slowed the flow of sand southward.  I think the city leased the land about 30 years ago. In the 70's the Boy Scouts had a campaign to collect discarded Christmas  trees and place them on the center of the sand bar to accelerate the accretion of sand. I was one of those scouts. After a time the program was discontinued. Some of the sand bars are almost 30 feet high now. Sand continues to build on the north point and the eddy current has pulled much of that sand back to the west eating much of the dune line back almost 80 feet in places over the last seven years or so. The process of accretion continues to build the north point and over the last 10 years the shoals have filled and formed to a level that dries out almost every day during low tide. Prior to that the shoal area was almost always wet even at  low tide and a deep channel separated the shoal area from the area we call Huguenot Park.   I remember watching as the pond filled with sediment and the grass beds formed and grew inside the park. I was very tuned into this because of my environmental interest growing up and my interest in kiteboarding in the pond. As the area fills in it is likely that the sediment will choke nearly all of the current and that the process will result in a large marsh bed. I am told that the shoal area is one of the fastest growing areas of land along the east coast. Anyone who has spent as many hours, days, weeks there as I have can tell you that the area is always changing shape. In general though the build up of sand seems to be creating larger shoals further out in the ocean and slowing the flow of water in the Ft. George river.  Channels that flow through the shoals have become narrower and moved hundreds of yards or filled in. It seems that the park is growing in general and eventually might even connect to the Talbot Island side. Of course any close pass of a tropical storm might change all that in a few days and the whole park might become just one big shoal or disappear. In the space of one week I watched the sand build up the point several  feet in hight while eating to face of the dune back 20 or 30 feet. Some people have suggested the sand might close off the ft George River which could lead to flooding in the areas to the west of the park. The only things for sure is that there is rapid change in and around the park. The natural ecosystem which was water will never exist there again and the efforts of man, jetties, compaction etc. are the reason the park even exists at all.           

[billy]

Little Talbot on the inlet side, and the configuration of the sand bars in Ft. George inlet, has changed dramatically in my lifetime.

[kitester]

Billy,
your are correct.
In fact It changes on every tide and dramatic changes can happen in the space of a few days. Over the last few months a small slough has formed on the eastern side of the north point and has begun to extend around to the west. If it grows and remains deep enough the need for posts across the point to keep cars from accessing the shoal could be a moot point. The very rate of change is why trying to place quantitative rules or restrictions on the park is so difficult. One of the things that the environmental lobby has been pushing for is, now get this, a 100 year environmental environmental impact study! No one in their right mind who had ever even been to the park would make such a preposterous suggestion. The jetty has only been in existence for about 115 years. When my family moved to Jacksonville in 1969 (41 years ago) we used to go to Talbot Island because we did not have a 4X4 and you really needed one to get out to the jetty then. I remember seeing the area we now call the park and it was almost nothing, just a few thin strips of un-vegetated sand, compared to what it is now. Most of the area was washed over by tides everyday and the FT. George River channel ran more East/West than it does today. Another preposterous demand made by the bird lobby is that the city come up with a carrying capacity for the park. This idea is one pushed for mostly by people who have never even been to the park and is fueled by a few pictures that show an extremely high tide on a very busy day. Cars are crowded into a small area making it a perfect photo op for the environmental extremists. In fact that picture is at least several years old and represents a rare occurrence. That is not to say that it can't happen but what are the real consequences. I have been caught out there many times by the rising water unable to drive down the front of the beach. So what! wait 45 minutes and the tide drops (yes its that fast). The sand is exposed again and access restored. The park manager has proven that the city can operate the park during all conditions and all tides. So a set carrying capacity simply does not apply. If you have low tide in the middle of the day with thousands of square yards of beach why restrict the park to a small number of patrons. When you have a high tide the park cant accept more than a few during that time. There have been about 25+ days last year that the manager has had to refuse entry for a time because of the high water. The common sense play by play way of doing things out there has been very successful for so long so why change it? It has been suggested that a high low carrying cap be written into the park management plan. What would happen if the beach side of the park expanded in size again and the profile of the beach changed to allow full time access even at high tide. That is how it was about seven years ago. Suppose that the large sand bars forming almost a half mile north-east from the point became large enough to remain dry and connected to the park. All of a sudden the park would be huge. And what if a series of strong northeast storms flooded the park and washed away most of the dunes and the CWA? It could go either way or it might just continue to slowly build the park and make it an even better place for the people of Jacksonville to truly access the ocean with out long walks through traffic over hot asphalt to a narrow beach where the view is one of building and houses. Here is an excerpt from the Captain Vic web site with some interesting jetty facts.

with permission....

St. Johns River Jetty Facts

Our St. Johns River/Mayport Jetties, (actual name Jacksonville Harbor) was designed in 1879. The North jetty was completed in 1892 to a length of 10,930 feet & the South was extended in 1893 to a length of 11,300 feet. Both are considered completed in 1895.

Maintained Channel Depth : 12.80M - 42 Ft
Latitude : 30.40° Longitude : -81.38°
Maintained Channel Width : 243.84M - 800 Ft
Width Between Jetties : 487.70M - 1600.1 Ft

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers originally used 1 to 6 ton granite stone to construct the massive breakwater. The principal method of construction was, placement of one to several courses (layers) of log and brush mattresses. Each layer was sunk and weighted down by placing one 12 to 15 inch thick layer of rip-rap stone. Once a firm foundation of mattresses was created, the remainder of the section geometry was built up with the larger sized stones. The original channel depth was maintained at 15' deep. Between 1897 & 1928 both jetties were raised 4.9' above mhw, repaired and the North was extended 2,070 seaward and the channel depth increased to 30' deep. 4 to 7 ton stones were used during this period. In 1930 repairs were made again and the height raised to 8' above mlw this time using stones averaging 6 to 8 tons with some weighing 10 tons. In 1934 the monolithic concrete cap was poured on top of the North jetty between stations 50+30 and 85+85 to keep the breakers close to shore from damaging on bad Noreasters. In 1938 the cap was widened. Repairs were made again in 1940 to 1941 by placing 1 to 6 ton stones. In 1961 and 1969 repairs were made and a study conducted in 1985 showed they are presently in need of rehabilitation to bring them up to previous designs. The Navy maintains a 42' channel depth to provide deep-water access to it's base at Mayport. Federal project depth was 38'.

I don't fish much myself but this web site has other interesting facts on it and deserves a few minutes of looking at.

                     

[Shine]

The image below shows Ft. Inlet and the original land mass crossed by the Jetty, a sand island known as "Wards Bank."   This is drawn from 1917 records, you can see the inlet was about a mile of navigable waters at low tide.  The area open from the river to the pond through the jetty was "sand packed" in the 1930s making for a land bridge to the Wards Bank.  The uplands of HMP were privately titled and subdivided around 1880. You can find this map in the Architecture of Jacksonville book (or some title to that effect) available at most library branches.  This private title was conveyed to the state with a deed restriction that it be used as a public recreation area.

[Shine]

From 1880s

[kitester]

Those are great maps! It is amazing how the area has changed by the installation of the jetty.

[kitester]

To all that have been following this forum thread,

If you enjoy the access you have to the park please be aware that there are now signs of Red Knots migrating through the park. I have seen several flocks of between ten and twenty feeding on the shoals. In one instance I actually did not see them until I was almost on top of them. They did not seen to mind me but it is better to keep a greater distance when possible. If you google Red Knot you can find a good picture of them. They may be found along any waterline where the coquina are. Coquina, also called donax, are small bivalve clams. As the warmer weather arrives its possible to dip your hands into the sand and find them. This is what the Red Knots feed on during the migration. Flocks will migrate through for a period of time as they head for the main feeding stop in the Delaware Bay area. They must arrive there in time for the horseshoe crab spawn because the horseshoe crab eggs provide the high fat and protein content necessary for the last part of the migration to the arctic breeding grounds. So this is time sensitive. When you arrive at the park there may be volunteers from the Audubon that might ask you to avoid approaching these feeding birds. They will also be directing cars away from the shoal until the permanent signs are in place. While the shoals are still accessible to pedestrians please listen to the volunteers and give the birds a chance to feed.  When they have migrated out of the park and the area clear of Red Knots the shoals will be fine to run and play on. It is only for a few weeks each year and your patience is appreciated.         

[BridgeTroll]

This type of reasonable and measured effort is exactly what is needed rather than the over the top and politically motivated effort to ban vehicles from this stretch of beach.