Norfolk Light Rail

[tufsu1]

$46 - $48 million per mile is pretty expensive....unless you compare it w/ Tampa's planned system, which could cost $100 million a mile!

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/lightrail-tab-may-rise-another-12m-hrt-delays-action-ceo

[tufsu1]

and for good measure, here's an article about light rail planned for Detroit

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/

this part makes too much sense...surprised the Feds agreed!

"In the recent spending bill, Detroit got its way.  By allowing the private money to be considered part of the local match under the Federal Transit Administration’s guidelines, Detroit’s chance of extending this project further than just what is planned by M1 rises exponentially."

[thelakelander]

I've been closely following the Detroit project.  I like that they are actually going to spend private money to build the first starter line and that it will also count as the local match for additional federal dollars for a more extensive project.  So instead of taking years of going through the federal process before funding is granted for the full line, they get a starter line up and running fairly quick and can immediately reap the economic benefits.  

[BridgeTroll]

I think you have been calling for something similar for quite awhile Lake...

[CS Foltz]

Makes me wonder why no one has come to this conclusion here.............other than lake? Florida is busy trying to get Federal Funds and there is no one willing to step up from the private sector? Infact I don't remember anyone even discussing private concerns stepping up. It would seem to me that presented properly,and with enough financial incentives.......CSX, FEC or even Amtrak  might participate!

[tufsu1]

CS...the intent of high speed rail is to put it out for bid to private entities for at least operations and maintenance.

and FYI, Amtrak isn't private.

[CS Foltz]

Thanks tufsu1...........I am aware of Amtrak being a government entity or subsidized, however you wish to label it! Either way...........why would they not bid on something that is within their purview.......I mean we are talking about rail right?

CS...the intent of high speed rail is to put it out for bid to private entities for at least operations and maintenance.

and FYI, Amtrak isn't private.

Public or Private on the buildout? The way you replied that could be taken either direction?

[tufsu1]

because your post said

"Florida is busy trying to get Federal Funds and there is no one willing to step up from the private sector?"

[CS Foltz]

Private sector won't touch it for a couple of reasons..........not cost effective, ridership would not support a system of that type there and last but not least...........they could not make any money at it without subsidizing! That area with what was proposed and the layout was and is a loser from the get go!

[tufsu1]

I assume you are referring to Florida's HSR proposal when saying "private sector won't touch it"

If so, you might do well to do some research on the Florida Overland Express (FOX)..its from about 10 years ago.

[thelakelander]

Makes me wonder why no one has come to this conclusion here.............other than lake? Florida is busy trying to get Federal Funds and there is no one willing to step up from the private sector? Infact I don't remember anyone even discussing private concerns stepping up. It would seem to me that presented properly,and with enough financial incentives.......CSX, FEC or even Amtrak  might participate!

If you don't use it, you lose it.  JTA should have used BJP $100 million for rapid transit ROW when it was still around to construct either a starter commuter rail or streetcar line.  Then that investment could have been leveraged as a local match to expand the system with FTA funds, similar to what Detroit has worked out.  That way, the city could have had something to build, experience and rally around. 

[mtraininjax]

CSX, FEC

What kind of a ROI does a freight railroad receive for hauling passengers? Why doesn't UPS or FEDEX haul passengers instead of freight? Why don't trucking companies haul passengers instead of packages and freight?
From a simple business review, companies make more money hauling freight than they do passengers. And without having to pay fees for TSA.

[Ocklawaha]

CSX, FEC

What kind of a ROI does a freight railroad receive for hauling passengers? Why doesn't UPS or FEDEX haul passengers instead of freight? Why don't trucking companies haul passengers instead of packages and freight?
From a simple business review, companies make more money hauling freight than they do passengers. And without having to pay fees for TSA.

Under Amtrak, several million a year, depending on traffic and more recently performance. The stage is changing FAST and recently in Railway Age and Progressive Railroading, NORFOLK SOUTHERN (who else?) said they would "Certainly" consider going back in the passenger business if there was any profit to be made. The industry hailed this as a turning point in attitude, the FEC is also on board. Seems it is understood that never again will private companies have to carry the full burden by themselves. Like the airlines, highway or waterway industries, much of the infrastructure will be funded by governments, local, state, federal. Their will be some firewall against a mammoth loss, as was experienced in the 1960's-71. There are also a whole bunch of private operators that already do such things as run the trains for Cal-Train, or LA's Metrolink, etc... Any one of these could be running a Florida passenger service. I think we have finally found the happy medium.

UPS AND FEDEX, Emery, DHL and a host of other Air Express companies have all tested, or flirted with passengers. Some already have "non-rev" cabins, and when those 4-10 seats are not full...?? Well why not? Commuters make a living off small loads like that and hells bells, it might pay for the fuel. You can find freight carriers already certified to do this, others are in line or at the door. You can sometimes fly FEDEX or UPS... The ULTIMATE NO FRILLS FLIGHT. Look at these two posts in a transportation blog:

l'etoile
Oct 18, 03, 11:14 pm
My husband has been able to fly on UPS and FedEx planes. I asked him how one gets the schedules, but he said to his knowledge they're not public information. He has a special number to call, but unfortunately he's not allowed to give it out. You may just have to hang around. One tip - most of their flights, probably 90 percent are overnight. Most UPS flights tend to arrive in Lou'ville about 4 a.m.
WHBM
Oct 19, 03, 9:31 am
Not on the web unfortunately, but you need a copy of the OAG Air Cargo Guide, it has all the cargo flight schedules. It's expensive because they only sell annual subscriptions and the book, about the size of a phone directory, is issued monthly. If you know anyone in a freight forwarders office they are likely to have an old one they throw out each month when the replacement arrives.

The OAG is just like the "Official Guide of the Railways and Steamship lines," or the bus industry's "Russell Motor Coach Guide." The only difference is their unofficial names in the industry IE: O.A.G. (airlines), The Official Guide (Railroads and steamships), and The Russell, (bus)

Now that the playing field is leveling off, we are going to continue to see major changes in the way we move about. Everything old is new again? Maybe so.

Also in some cases passengers are more profitable then freight. For example pulpwood or woodchips is hardly worth the cost of the rail cars, but processed lumber can be highly profitable. Each car involves the investment of $150-500,000 dollars, and it takes a lot of loads just to pay for mandatory brake inspections, safety appliances etc.. Passengers have a very small footprint (or butt print) like 14" on an average aircraft or bus, with maybe 14" of legroom. (Some Amtrak cars have 6' of leg room!) But for that tiny space a regular fare might be as much as $500-1,500 dollars. A lot of bucks for a tiny fast moving product, but then you have MILLIONS in liability. DAMN!

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

Any one of these could be running a Florida passenger service.

Optimum word is COULD. The other optimum word would be WHEN? Wake me when it happens.

[Ocklawaha]

Any one of these could be running a Florida passenger service.

Optimum word is COULD. The other optimum word would be WHEN? Wake me when it happens.

No Mtrain, the optimum word is possible, and the other is DONE, but you do need the OAG and some lead time. As for regular pax flights this will probably be more like "Mixed Train Daily."

OCKLAWAHA