Green Metropolis Why Living Smaller, Living Closer, and Driving Less Are the Key

[Ocklawaha]

The answers to these questions for Sprawl rail in Central Florida are:
1. NO, there barely is any existing demand
2. YES, it will be a boon to developers causing new waves of growth in rural communities

No matter how you try to spin this, Sunrail is being built to benefit developers, NOT existing residents!!!

What really should be happening is that people start moving out of created areas such as Poinciana, and start living closer to their places of employment in Orlando. That's what sustainable urban planning is all about. Having people live near their places of employment.

I moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!

Wrong again Faye. Sure you can find sites that state "Rail will cause sprawl..." I can show you sites that prove the Earth is flat, and that BRT buses can carry more people then trains. Wrong.

Your life in Poinciana is hardly representative of the balance of the Orlando Metro Area. Having lived in Sanford and Heathrow, as well as West Volusia, I can't even imagine what roads you were on. No demand? Really? Ever been on I-4 Southbound in Lake Mary, Maitland, Winter Park, Taft in the rush hourS. Leaving downtown at 4 pm on Colonial one can see I-4 is already crawling, and it will continue until 6:00, at least.

Sure the rail line WILL spur massive development, there are already plans and construction all along it. BINGO, Along it, not 5 miles away from it.  Commuter Rail creates dense concentrations of urban life centered around stations. Commuter Rail development might include urban, in town type Publix, Walmart, and such, but rarely plaza style sprawl in outlaying area's. The reason for this is found in the very concept itself, by nature Commuter Rail allows one to PARK the family car and ride, it certainly doesn't encourage more automobile use.
Without those automobiles people must stay centered on the stations or the concept AND THE DEVELOPERS will fail. Trust us, those developers will follow Sunrail, but they are smart enough to realize every mile from the station equals less and less sales.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

These are NOT cities,........the town of Kissimmee can hardly be considered a city, it is a rural community, and certainly Poinciana was a "created community," which to my knowledge NEVER outgrew the 10,000 residents, similar to what is expected to happen to Golf World Village where there are ghost areas of unfinished real estate.

Kissimmee is completely different from Poinciana.  Incorporated in 1883, as of 2006, Kissimmee had over 60,000 residents living inside of its municipal limits.  It also has a walkable downtown area.  A rail stop in DT Kissimmee only allows this historic city center to grow in density.  The same goes for cities of Winter Park, Sanford and Deland.  

Poinciana isn't an actual city.  Its a 35 square mile deed restricted community.  In 2000, it had a population of 13,647.  As of 2007, its estimated that it's population had grown to 68,555.  In any event, its not going anywhere and the people living in these communities continue to clog I-4 to get various destinations in the metro.  Sunrail, gives the region a chance to pull some of the local trips off I-4, while encouraging sustainable urban pedestrian friendly development around its stations.  Sunrail can possibly do for metro Orlando what Caltrain has done for San Francisco's bedroom communities.  I don't see how making the region more walkable can be a bad thing.

Other areas in the US have pointed to the sprawl rail possibility on similar grounds:

Extending the Hudson Line into northern Dutchess County poses several questions, which must be addressed in an Environmental Impact Statement and Major Investment Study. Is there existing demand for commuter service in Northern Dutchess? Or, will the extension create new demand by causing new waves of growth and sprawl in rural communities? Will the loss of farmland and rural character accelerate?

There is nothing rural left about Kissimmee, Orlando, Winter Park, Altamonte Springs, Lake Mary and a host of other communities Sunrail will serve.  These places have all been connected with post-Disney sprawl in the last 30 years.  However, what rail will do is give these places the opportunity to city shape and redevelop low density sprawl into sustainable urban development.  It has the power to do what DC's Metro did for Arlington County, VA.

The answers to these questions for Sprawl rail in Central Florida are:
1. NO, there barely is any existing demand
2. YES, it will be a boon to developers causing new waves of growth in rural communities

1. Its got just as much demand as HSR, except its numbers are underestimated instead of overcooked.

2. Yes, it will be a boon to developers, causing new waves of sustainable growth in central Orlando, established suburbs and historic city centers of satellite cities.

No matter how you try to spin this, Sunrail is being built to benefit developers, NOT existing residents!!!

It benefits both.  A resident will be able to live in Winter Park and catch a train to Florida Hospital, DT Orlando or Kissimmee to work.  A developer will be able to take a piece of blighted property in the old area south of DT Orlando and construct a transit friendly development in central Orlando as opposed to somewhere off of 436 or another far flung area.

What really should be happening is that people start moving out of created areas such as Poinciana, and start living closer to their places of employment in Orlando. That's what sustainable urban planning is all about. Having people live near their places of employment.

Poinciana may have been created recently, but most of the cities that will be served by Sunrail have been around since the late 1800s and are just as old and established as Orlando.  We should be promoting sustainable growth in all of our communities instead of cherry picking.  

I moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!

Why did you move there?  That's one place I would avoid at all costs.

[Ocklawaha]

I moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!

Why did you move there?  That's one place I would avoid at all costs.

Regional Math? Poinciana = DELTONA SOUTH?  Whats wrong with it? perhaps no Se Habla Español?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Here is what I did not like about Poinciana when I lived in Central Florida.  

1. Highly inaccessible.
2. Cheap tract home development.
3. Limited commercial base.
4. Lack of diversity and culture.
5. No industrial base.
6. Cheap looking architecture.
7. Not walkable.

With that said, I have not been to Poinciana in over a decade.  Things may be different today.

Btw, I've never been a huge fan of Deltona either.

[Ocklawaha]

Sam, an MJ mutual acquaintance has a beautiful home, with a huge enclosed pool and party patio in Deltona. Got to hand it to them, what started as an early version of Poinciana almost exclusively for retired empty Nester's has changed radically. The good news is:

They took the initiative and Incorporated into the City of Deltona, second largest in Volusia County. Debary also Incorporated.

Both new Cities immediately set about cutting broad boulevards through the twisting maze of tiny under built streets.

Both new Cities have invested massive amounts into public works, water, sewer, ditching, lakes, ponds etc...

Both new Cities have bet the bank on new amenity's, civic buildings, library's, police and fire protection.

Deltona alone went from two sheriffs officers to a force of over 45.

Just spend a minute on their web sites, I say bravo to taking control of their own destiny.
http://www.deltonafl.gov/
http://www.debary.org/


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Btw, population wise, Deltona is the largest municipality in Volusia.  However, Daytona's urban area population is larger than Deltona's.

[Overstreet]

I find it interesting that the example of New York city dwellers as a good low carbon foot print can be used as an example against passenger rail roads.

People who actually live in New York don't have cars.(ref 2nd wife, 9 years NYC resident) When they travel they use the rails, busses, taxi or rent a car. So how can this be used against a rail system?

People who live in outskirts of New York or Chicago (aunt, resident 45yrs burbs, 15yrs Loop) drive to the station and ride the train into the city to work, theater, etc.  OK, it might be more difficult without the train. But they would have done it any way since they desired to live in the burbs. Like all the folks in the Orlando Metro area, Atlanta Metro area, etc. do now with their cars.

Sprawl will happen with or without the rail.  

[Overstreet]

.............Living in Poinciana ( a Sunrail end point) was the Biggest mistake I ever made!!...............

I cannot judge living in Poinciana against the other mistakes you've made, but living in Poinciana is a mistake that can be quantified without bringing the rail line in the topic.

Poinciana is a deed restricted community run by an HOA. Most of us dislike HOAs that would be enough for us.

But most folks are already there and drive cars into the city if they are not already retired. I'm surprised you wouldn't want those 20,000 or so $16,000 per capita people to have rail available to lower their carbon foot print and provide afordable transportation. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poinciana,_Florida

http://www.city-data.com/city/Poinciana-Florida.html

[FayeforCure]

Losers

Tea Party: The anti-tax group lobbied hard against SunRail, arguing the project was toyo expensive and would become a long-standing boondoggle to taxpayers. A dozen or so Tea Party members gathered at the Capitol to protest the bill that created SunRail, but their efforts went for naught

Faye, nice post. Now you've got me all mixed up with what ever the hell a Tea Party is... Are we talking political party? A new Party? So YOUR views are representative of the Tea Party, and according to you mine are too? and we have completely different views? WTF? As I said, been in South America and have as little with politics as possible. It certainly is different in Colombia!

I agree that the numbers are quite low ball.

Not my post, sorry. But in regards to the Tea Party, both Paula Dockery and John Mica have spoken to Tea Party gatherings even though they both disagree on Sprwl Rail.

Paula Dockery spoke in Florida at  Tea Party gathering and is a GOP candidate for governor as is Alex Sink for the Democrats. What ever happens I hope we finally get our first female governor.

John Mica spoke in Washington DC at a Tea Party gathering, but unlike the Tea-party folks, he supports Sprawl Rail.

Ock's anti-government rhetoric is Tea-partyish. John Mica is part of that government he so despises.

[FayeforCure]

Here is what I did not like about Poinciana when I lived in Central Florida.  

1. Highly inaccessible.
2. Cheap tract home development.
3. Limited commercial base.
4. Lack of diversity and culture.
5. No industrial base.
6. Cheap looking architecture.
7. Not walkable.

With that said, I have not been to Poinciana in over a decade.  Things may be different today.

Btw, I've never been a huge fan of Deltona either.

Exactly, so I find this disturbing:

According to the APV, the population stands at 68,555 as of January 2007. At the 2000 census, the population was 13,647 at the 2000 census, but like in many areas of Florida, this has grown substantially since the census date.

In 7 years they increased their population five-fold?!!? Incredible, I'm not sure I believe this. I briefly visited last summer and it didn't seem all that more developed except for the addition of a Publix and a Lowe's.

World Golf Village is not expected to grow much either, and with people opting to live closer to work, I know that's a trend that won't be stopped. Sprawl Rail enables and condones sprawl at the expense of liveable dense development inside Orlando close to work.

[thelakelander]

You must not be a fan of rail commuter rail in general. So how is HSR (which you are a fan of) supposed to create liveable desnse development in the region at the expense of sprawl?  Over 80 miles in length, it will have only one urban stop (Tampa).  The Lakeland, Disney, I-Drive and Orlando airport stations are in areas that mimic Poinciana as far as developing for the automobile and away from the city center goes.

[Ocklawaha]

Not my post, sorry. But in regards to the Tea Party, both Paula Dockery and John Mica have spoken to Tea Party gatherings even though they both disagree on Sprwl Rail.

Paula Dockery spoke in Florida at  Tea Party gathering and is a GOP candidate for governor as is Alex Sink for the Democrats. What ever happens I hope we finally get our first female governor.

John Mica spoke in Washington DC at a Tea Party gathering, but unlike the Tea-party folks, he supports Sprawl Rail.

Ock's anti-government rhetoric is Tea-partyish. John Mica is part of that government he so despises.

Well Faye, I think you are quite confused as to where I stand... I did a bit of checking and best I can tell, the "Tea Party," is just another Less Government - No Taxes - Cut Everything (except freeways and the military) type groups. If John is part of that mess, he isn't leading me. So where am I politically? As I've said I'm an unrepentant Southron, that would dearly love to see Uncle Sam and the horse he rode in on gallop out of Florida! REVOLUTIONARY? You tell me. Less government? No, just OUR GOVERNMENT, local, states-rights, and providing for it's citizens without adventures in God knows where, for some Oil dude in Texas. When I say Southron, I do so proudly, but understand this is not the "Klan" type Southron, I'd just as soon shoot the whole bunch of those *#&@^!  A South for Southrons of any color, race, religion or belief, that doesn't try and export it's will on the rest of the world. So is Ock a Commie? Go figure Comrade, go figure...

FOR WHAT ITS WORTH...

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound

Buffalo Springfield

Shades of a past life?

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Would have thought that a Southron hippie would be a contradiction in terms, but that is obviously not the case!