New Convenience Store

[jason_contentdg]

It appears no commercial part of the car wash will border residential, with separation of the lot to the west, and the alleyway.

The "spirit" and "intent" seems to be where Silas will have his biggest fight.

[thelakelander]

In situations like this, the opposition is typically a vocal minority.  I think Silas' largest issue will be more related to trust, to those that oppose.  Its clear that he is willing to work with the community and cater to various concerns but unfortunately, I don't think there is much the guy can do that will change that.  Imo, he'd probably be better off making sure he has a good legal answer to the opposition's concerns, but attempt to gain community support from others in the area who aren't opposed to neutralize the opposition.

there are a couple references to the "spirit" or "intent" of the overlay in the planning report & Joel's letter.

meaning, that while the 4th street property has a history of a being carwash, they want to discourage this from reoccuring by funneling high-traffic commerical onto Main & 8th. part of the intent of the overlay was to discourage random commerical intrusion onto residential streets.....

is this not the case?

I'd really like to see someone present a real argument proving that 4th or any other cross street is residential within the commercial corridor, in addition to providing some traffic counts.  All properties have depth.  In general, everything between the alleys paralleling Main is commerical.  This area of 4th is commercial as well.  You can't deny a property access to the only street that serves it.  Silas needs an attorney if we're headed down this slippery slope.

also, 3rd & Main is different in at least one aspect. The commerical part of 3rd & Main does not border residential. I don't think this a coincidence, i'm sure the planners took this into consideration when designing the complex. 3rd & Main's residential borders 3rd Street's residential.

Perhaps by taking a look at thier planning report we'll see how they negotiated similar obstacles.

Good suggestion, however there was not the same type of opposition even though from a traffic standpoint, 3rd and Main probably dumps five times as much traffic onto 3rd Street.  If anything, this seems to be more of a "trust" issue around the owner.  If it were Cesery, I'd doubt it stir up this much rutkus.  Also, 3rd and Main had to be entirely rezoned to PUD.  That type of multifamily residential needs an exception, just like a car wash.  However, because the community worked with Cesery, a decent project was developed.  Its time for the community (all) to do the same with Mr. Jones.

[fsu813]

who's doing does count.

[thelakelander]

All information (from all sides) should be properly processed and evaluated.   If this were the case, this thread would not be this long.  However, accusations without proof should not be a reason for denial.  If there is a traffic study suggesting that this use will be bad for the area, it needs to be presented.

[Springfield Girl]

Lake, I agree that trust is an issue. While a few of you are taking Mr. Jones at his word now, he has a history of not going through the correct venues to get a project approved. He did not come to the community with any plans but showed up empty handed to a SPAR meeting two weeks before his hearing was scheduled. SPAR council did not receive any info from him until the afternoon of the HPC hearing when it was too late to look at the info or get it out to the community. He has gone through this process before so he is knowledgable about what needs to be done. So why did it take a few residents contacting him to get any exterior concessions or issues addressed? Personally, I do not feel he has shown good faith in the past and that goes alot further with me than his present, seeming cooperation after the fact. The staff at historic planning was involved because the planning dept. asked them to be. We are in a nationally designated historic district which is looked at differently than a non-historic area of town. With all that being said Jason's drawings look great and if I had some guarantee that the carwash would end up looking like that it would alleviate some of my concerns. I will admit I'm cynical but I have good reason to be. I see drawings all the time for proposed uses but the finished product rarely comes close to the presented plans. I understand my opinion is just that but if someone wants my support I need to know that they are acting in good faith and care about what is in the best interest of the community.

[thelakelander]

I will say this much.  My experience in Springfield, both as VP of SAMBA and a commercial property owner has allowed me to see that there is gulf in understanding and vision in the district.

With that in mind, most business owners don't even know the correct process for developing a project in Springfield.  The city's website is a mess and SPAR's isn't all peaches and cream in this arena either.  Also, there is no unified community vision or goal.  Everybody wants revitalization but when you talk to people, that word can mean totally different things.  There are only two historic districts in Jacksonville and they make up a very small percentage of the city's overall land area. 

There are regulations and expectations within these districts that the common business owner/investor knows nothing about.  It can be pretty difficult, if not impossible to find and supply people with information you don't even know you need.  In most cases, these people that others don't trust have all the good intentions in the world but they just don't know the proper development/permitting path to take in a community like Springfield.

Also, the "trust" issue swings both ways.  Many people also don't trust that "the community representation" have their best interests at heart or that they even are willing to work with them.  Situations like this car wash thing only widen the gulf.   

In the end, for commercial revitalization to really move forward in Springfield better dialogue is needed from both sides because everybody wants the same thing.  A vibrant urban commercial corridor.  However, it benefits none of us to continue to base our information and decision making processing skills on pure ignorance of not fully understanding the situation or potential because of a lack of true open dialogue and communication.

[sheclown]

I think you about summed it up. 

Where do we go from here?

[zoo]

Lakelander:

...they are taking a guess in believing that a "better" use for the property is right around the corner, despite the past track record and recession.

Sheclown:

Where do we go from here?

I'd like to see metrojacksonville.com's latest urban "Superboy" try to get it leased, sold, developed for a use that doesn't cause as much drama. He's doing it Downtown in a down economy, so why not up here?

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-petras-rich-trendel-brings-nightlife-downtown

Go, Rich!

[thelakelander]

After attending tonight's meeting, its probably not that far off to conclude that the drama established may be coming from a smaller percentage of the actual Springfield community.  Once his plans are revised, it would probably be a good idea for Mr. Jones to attempt to document the acceptance of his actual neighbors and other businesses in the commercial district and include that within his zoning submittal.  This, combined with economic and zoning facts, can go a long way in neutering the drama.

[zoo]

Oh, right. Tripped over my marionette strings and forgot to disclaim that my views are my own before I typed.

[thelakelander]

All of our views are our own.  Nevertheless, it would be in the guy's best interest to document whatever support he may have out there.  He should fight fire with fire and let the chips fall where they may.  He has too much money invested in it to not do all he can do to gain that exception.

[zoo]

I hope Mr. Jones does continue to use the process to try to get his exception. That is the way the system is supposed to work. But the reason there are uses that require an exception is so the community can weigh in with their input -- which they are doing.

No one is using "fire" to fight anything. To me, it seems SPAR is standing behind the intent of its most valuable planning tool, the Springfield Overlay, to reduce the concentration of automotive-intensive uses. I fully expect that if SPAR weren't supporting the Overlay, it'd be hearing it loudly also. Bottom line with SPAR is, it can't win b/c there are, and will continue to be, differing opinions in the District on just about any issue.

If cars don't attract people, which you've indicated is accurate planning theory, then Springfield is already going backwards with the inclusion of multi-block medians on Main St and discussions of where to put more parking on Main St. People attract people -- also planning theory, and one that I also agree with. Imho, the decision to be made is, which aspect being attracted by this business (cars or people) will be more felt on Main, and the short segments of primarily residential blocks that they touch? How much presence will 10 cars have vs. how much presence the 10 people driving them will have?

In the city I moved here from, I used the carwashes like the one it seems Mr. Jones has planned. I described how I saw it work in an earlier post:

The people spent money inside, then sat outside waiting for their cars. The people sitting outside did give a it feeling not unlike the porch in front of 3rd & Main. The cars lined up all over the place drying and waiting to be driven off gave it a feeling not unlike United Cars b/w 2nd & 3rd.

I still have a few questions for Mr. Jones I don't think have been answered yet (and I'm not implying anything intentional on his part; they maybe just haven't been asked, or they have and I missed the posted answers). Dan, Matt, Jason, has the following been discussed?

- If I recall, he had 11 other partners in the ownership of the property. Is Mr. Jones the sole owner of the car wash business, or does he still have other business partners, and, if so, how many and what will their involvement be?

- What is his pricing strategy? I think this is important as it will determine the potential flow of cars through the business. Anyone running the numbers of just how many cars it will take for Mr. Jones to make up, and exceed, his investment of $500,000 (+ planned improvement) in the course of the short-term plan for the business (5 years?) If he is allowed to be open 7a-7p, 7 days/wk, and a car wash is $x, will breakeven or profitability require 2 cars per hour, or 40 cars per hour?

- Is he planning on supporting the community through membership in any of the organizations -- SAMBA, SIA/WC, SPAR, SACARC, SHARP, whatever?

- Will the car wash part of the model be automated (cash insertion/credit card swipe), or require a person to ring up sales? Is this the reason the store is required with it, so a person is required to be on-site?

I am not on the fence anymore. I already think Springfield is stepping back from walkability with the new multi-block medians FDOT required in the Main St improvements, and the concentration of other existing auto-intensive uses -- United Cars, Jax Auto Sales, Catlin, Fortec, A&A Auto and Joe's Detailing -- 6 within the first 6 blocks of Main. Most, if not all, of these are good businesses. But they contribute very little to walkability and, in some cases, set back design is a contributor to dis-connective gaps (i.e., Jax Auto Sales and Catlin).

I have changed my mind back and forth several times, and the information provided on this thread has been very helpful in helping me decide which planning theory result I believe will occur. Depending on the answers to the above questions, I may change my mind again. I look forward to hearing the views of all of the planners involved in this process in Dec.

[Dan B]

?  Zoo. 

Really most of the information is none of your business.  You aren't qualified to analyse it anyways.

What happened to not making it personal?

Or is it different when you do it?

[sheclown]

This brings up a good point...

How much information should a business need to provide to satisfy the "neighborhood" and convince them to support him? 

Has it been a lack of info that has caused concern about the car wash?

Is there anything that Silas could say/swear/promise which would get SPAR's backing?

[fsu813]

Good grief Stephen, give it a rest.

Zoo's questions are perfectly appropriate to ask of someone trying to gain support in the community for a business.

Meeting Mr. Jones a couple times now, I think he would have no problem answering them.

Sheclown,

Take a look at the SAMBA thread. Some of what you ask in addressed there. Basically, they'd have to see the finished design, addressing as many of the planning reports issues as possible, document the projected noise level in decibals, etc. Also direct dialouge between Mr. Jones and more of the SPAR board would be beneficial.