Can JTA Be Trusted? Misstates Bus Stop Numbers, Maintenance Costs - What's Next?

[stjr]

Folio Weekly revealed this week that JTA misstated both the number of bus stops and the average maintenance costs by playing number games.  JTA offered no valid explanation for the misleading numbers.

JTA counts bus stops by counting as a stop a location EACH time a bus route includes it.  So, if five bus routes stop at the same corner in Riverside (as they do at Park and Herschel), JTA counts that corner as five bus stops!  As Folio notes, that's like counting airport gates based on the number of daily flights, or counting roads based on the number of cars traveling them.  Folio says the real number of stops isn't over 6,000 as represented by JTA but abut 3,660. (JTA now claims the real number is closer to 4,300.)

Folio also claims JTA has reported three differing sets of numbers for bus shelter maintenance (i.e. repairs and cleaning) over the last two years: $3,500, $950, and $1,200.  If this wasn't bad enough, they said that if the real costs for the fiscal year 2008 of $94,985 was divided by the 350 shelters existing, the real annual maintenance number is ONLY $271 ! JTA inflated the number by taking the costs of maintaining (i.e cutting grass and collecting garbage) ALL bus stops and allocating it to just the bus shelters.

Folio indicates the City Council and JTA Board plan to be asking questions given this might have changed the recent debate on bus shelter ads.

I think that given the severity of the misinformation, the bus shelter ad ordinance should be immediately rescinded and reevaluated with independently audited information.  Remember too, that those supporting the ads also relied on JTA representations that its lawyers where sure, despite expert testimony to the contrary, that the City would not be legally exposing itself to billboards returning.  Now, who are you gonna believe?

None of this should be surprising given JTA's history of 90% inaccuracy after 20 years on the $ky-high-way, failing to indicate that the $ky-high-way actually loses $14 million/year, not $7 million bandied in the press, and its continuous way-off projections of the benefits of its projects over the reality of what they deliver.  Add their pleas of poverty and fiscal conservatism when their employees are getting benefits of some 55% of their salaries versus private sector ranges of 20 to 30%.

Why should the public trust JTA to competently operate, manage, and prioritize our transportation systems when they "play to win at all costs" with their misinformation campaigns, whether deliberate or through incompetence.

P.S. Can't link the Folio article because it's not posted to their web site.

[Doctor_K]

Does this mean you would advocate tearing up the roads and destroying the buses since they're a money loser too?

[Charles Hunter]

Uh, stjr's point here is not his usual anti-skyway rant, but about the shelters ...

[thelakelander]

I would still be in favor of advertising on bus shelters even if we only had 100 stops in our system and they cost $50/year to maintain and JTA were not pushing for them.  Privately funded and maintained facilities are more attractive and cleaner than anything JTA will bring to the table based on their past.  I'll be a happy man if we get anything close to what transit riders enjoy in places like Chicago, Pittsburgh and Boston.  Plus, we stay in a town not really willing to pay more in their taxes for quality of life public improvements, so working with the private sector on some of these things makes a lot of sense.    As for JTA, I group them, other agencies and most people the same.  Listen, take what's said with a grain of salt, research the issue and develop an independent position on your own.

However, I will say I'm suprised no one has attempted to gather this type of information until now.  If I were in opposition, doing my own assessment of their shelters/stops, etc. would be the first thing I'd attempt to find out to shape my case for ripping their argument a part.

[CS Foltz]

This is a good time to start that now lake.......have you ever seen any cleanup done at any bus stop? Most of them, supposedly, have no shelters and are just a pole with a bimbo sign .....so what is there to clean up? I am beginning to believe that the current Administration is blowing smoke up my panty hose again! I do not believe whatever figures that JTA puts out based on the Skyway fiasco, between that and buses for 600K that are never filled up (www.nationsbus.com shows bus's that are smaller.......do we need buses that carry 80 people? It would seem to me to tailor the bus's for the ridership numbers......some would be bigger and some would be smaller.......not one size works everywhere!) No vision and no plan other than lots more concrete!

[stjr]

I would still be in favor of advertising on bus shelters even if we only had 100 stops in our system and they cost $50/year to maintain and JTA were not pushing for them.  Privately funded and maintained facilities are more attractive and cleaner than anything JTA will bring to the table based on their past. 

Lake, what the heck does it take to maintain a bus shelter?  This isn't some high tech device requiring advanced training?  All it would appear to take is some detergent, a bucket, a screw driver or socket wrench, and some touch up paint.  It's no different that maintaining a highway right of way, $ky-high-way station, cleaning a bus, etc.  If you think JTA can't do something this basic competently, why would you count on them to manage our entire transportation system?

However, I will say I'm surprised no one has attempted to gather this type of information until now.  If I were in opposition, doing my own assessment of their shelters/stops, etc. would be the first thing I'd attempt to find out to shape my case for ripping their argument a part.

Lake, who has a full time job to go back and check everything JTA compiles?  After hiring high paid "professionals" to work there FOR THE TAXPAYERS, backed by even higher paid CONSULTANTS who are supposedly experts beyond question, why, why, why? should we have to reconstruct their work.

Further, when the public does challenge JTA and other governmental entities, they are usually handily dismissed as less competent, naysayers, or irrelevant.  Don't believe me?  On the bus shelters, Arpen and Brinton testified as legal experts with far more experience than JTA or City attorneys, and yet were dismissed as less credible than the agency hacks.  Even after a JTA attorney conflict of interest was highlighted.

And, look to the experience of you and Ock.  Despite your well researched positions and expertise, how often do you get JTA or the City to factor in your input?  I am surprised, of all parties, you would advocate such a burden on the common man.

JTA serves us, the public, not themselves or special interests.  It's high time they started reliably fulfilling this role in our community or we should look at another model.

[thelakelander]

I would still be in favor of advertising on bus shelters even if we only had 100 stops in our system and they cost $50/year to maintain and JTA were not pushing for them.  Privately funded and maintained facilities are more attractive and cleaner than anything JTA will bring to the table based on their past. 

Lake, what the heck does it take to maintain a bus shelter?  This isn't some high tech device requiring advanced training?  All it would appear to take is some detergent, a bucket, a screw driver or socket wrench, and some touch up paint.  It's no different that maintaining a highway right of way, $ky-high-way station, cleaning a bus, etc.  If you think JTA can't do something this basic competently, why would you count on them to manage our entire transportation system?

I don't think it is a good idea to count on JTA to manage our entire transportation system either.  I would not be opposed to a completely different entity taking over the transit component of JTA's responsibilities, thus leaving them with their original purpose.  I don't think you guys get my side of the argument.  It really doesn't revolve around JTA's or the sign ordinance proponent positions. 

I like the idea of the private sector investing in public infrastructure, have no problem against advertising and believe private backed facilities will come with more quality, look better and last longer than what the public entity will provide.  Public/private partnerships are great for a community that is unwilling to invest in a quality mass transit system.





As for the cost of maintaining a good shelter, I'm not sure.  I think it depends on what you specify and provide.  The shelters in Baltimore and Chicago come with glass, maps and trash cans, lighting, etc. 

Something like this (which I personally prefer) would require more maintainence than the trash we presently have in town.  However, if you want to know the answer, I'd suggest contacting a company in the bus shelter advertising business (JCDecaux maybe?) before taking JTA's or the sign ordinance group's data, as Bible.

However, I will say I'm surprised no one has attempted to gather this type of information until now.  If I were in opposition, doing my own assessment of their shelters/stops, etc. would be the first thing I'd attempt to find out to shape my case for ripping their argument a part.

Lake, who has a full time job to go back and check everything JTA compiles?  After hiring high paid "professionals" to work there FOR THE TAXPAYERS, backed by even higher paid CONSULTANTS who are supposedly experts beyond question, why, why, why? should we have to reconstruct their work.

When you feel passionately about something, you find a way to make the time.  If the guys behind Metro Jacksonville took the position in your quote (we have full time jobs and families), this site would not be here today, JTA would have BRT running down Adams Street and Friendship Fountain would be a kiddie pool by now.

Further, when the public does challenge JTA and other governmental entities, they are usually handily dismissed as less competent, naysayers, or irrelevant.  Don't believe me?  On the bus shelters, Arpen and Brinton testified as legal experts with far more experience than JTA or City attorneys, and yet were dismissed as less credible than the agency hacks.  Even after a JTA attorney conflict of interest was highlighted.

[/quote]

The key is finding the information to rip apart the opposition's argument early on.  This is how MJ has been successful over the last few years on several issues we have equally agreed to back.  In the shelter case, actually identifying the real number of bus stops, shelters and the cost to maintain them should have been one of the first things done before even bringing up the sign ordinance.  You devalidate your opponent's argument, then you kill it by offering a more afforable, feasible alternative solution.

And, look to the experience of you and Ock.  Despite your well researched positions and expertise, how often do you get JTA or the City to factor in your input?  I am surprised, of all parties, you would advocate such a burden on the common man.

You win some, you lose some.  MJ has had a hand in the modified BRT plan, commuter rail studies, inclusion of the S-Line in the commuter rail plan, the revision of DT's parking ordinance, the Laura Street Lighting plan, the COJ/Landing deal, new DT signs on I-95 and the streetcar study.  Just keep fighting.  If the argument makes sense, eventually someone will listen.

JTA serves us, the public, not themselves or special interests.  It's high time they started reliably fulfilling this role in our community or we should look at another model.[/b]

I agree.

[stjr]

Lake, thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I agree with the need to follow many of the steps you outline but, if our public servants did their jobs professionally and properly, it shouldn't be necessary. 

You are basically saying that any proposals and/or information spouted by JTA or other government entities should be taken by the public as unreliable, undependable, misleading, incompetent, self-serving, etc. until and unless we, the public, acting on cynicism, distrust, and lack of confidence, take our own time and effort to double check and validate everything they say or do.

It's a shame that the well compensated taxpayer-paid public servants can't be counted on to provide us honest and reliable facts, proper vetting processes, and clear and reasonably independent thinking in solving our important community issues with best practices and solutions.

The worst is that other public servants, such as the Mayor and City Council, blindly rely on agents of this broken system to ratify, or make further, decisions that merely amplify the problems.  Truth be told, it is their job, as much as anyone's, to question and probe what is brought before them.  It doesn't happen nearly enough.  It's why so many of our community projects fail to deliver or end up in the scrap heat after much wasted taxpayer dollars.

So, when you cut to the chase, the answer you are suggesting, and I agree, to the question "Can JTA Be Trusted?" is "NO!".

[FayeforCure]

I would still be in favor of advertising on bus shelters even if we only had 100 stops in our system and they cost $50/year to maintain and JTA were not pushing for them.  Privately funded and maintained facilities are more attractive and cleaner than anything JTA will bring to the table based on their past.  I'll be a happy man if we get anything close to what transit riders enjoy in places like Chicago, Pittsburgh and Boston.  Plus, we stay in a town not really willing to pay more in their taxes for quality of life public improvements, so working with the private sector on some of these things makes a lot of sense.    As for JTA, I group them, other agencies and most people the same.  Listen, take what's said with a grain of salt, research the issue and develop an independent position on your own.

Lakelander, this is so typical of Republican talk ( I know you are not a Republican).

Instead of holding government accountable, and the tax-payer funded public agencies, Republicans throw their hands in the air and yell: privatize!!

I believe in making government work better, and the only way we can do that is to hold them accountable. Expect and DEMAND BETTER. It can be done. There are many regions in our country where public transportation does better, without the frequent lies.

As a community we should be willing to invest in the community with our tax payer monies without government spinning their wheels and making decisions on false information provided by public agencies. The answer is not LESS government. The answer is BETTER government.

It shouldn't be citizens that do the oversight and find the lies. Government should provide the oversight so the tax-payer doesn't get ripped off.

stjr, thanks for posting this. I was beginning to wonder why nobody on MJ even cared to report on Folio Magazine's findings.

[thelakelander]

I would still be in favor of advertising on bus shelters even if we only had 100 stops in our system and they cost $50/year to maintain and JTA were not pushing for them.  Privately funded and maintained facilities are more attractive and cleaner than anything JTA will bring to the table based on their past.  I'll be a happy man if we get anything close to what transit riders enjoy in places like Chicago, Pittsburgh and Boston.  Plus, we stay in a town not really willing to pay more in their taxes for quality of life public improvements, so working with the private sector on some of these things makes a lot of sense.    As for JTA, I group them, other agencies and most people the same.  Listen, take what's said with a grain of salt, research the issue and develop an independent position on your own.

Lakelander, this is so typical of Republican talk ( I know you are not a Republican).

Instead of holding government accountable, and the tax-payer funded public agencies, Republicans throw their hands in the air and yell: privatize!!

I believe in making government work better, and the only way we can do that is to hold them accountable. Expect and DEMAND BETTER. It can be done. There are many regions in our country where public transportation does better, without the frequent lies.

As a community we should be willing to invest in the community with our tax payer monies without government spinning their wheels and making decisions on false information provided by public agencies. The answer is not LESS government. The answer is BETTER government.

It shouldn't be citizens that do the oversight and find the lies. Government should provide the oversight so the tax-payer doesn't get ripped off.

stjr, thanks for posting this. I was beginning to wonder why nobody on MJ even cared to report on Folio Magazine's findings.

I don't believe in either or positions, so stop with the party line stuff.  Why can't we hold government accountable and find solutions that include the private sector. I believe in getting the best bang for your buck.  That includes holding government accountable and finding ways to best utilize financing for various projects.  Why not have the best of both words?  I guess that's why I'm an Independent. 

As for MJ, there are only four founding members that make up the board and this is a volunteer organization.  Like many others, we have families, full time jobs and lives of our own.  My guess, is we (the four) did not see it.  I found out because another forum member sent me a PM yesterday asking a question about it.  So after my son's football game was over, I picked up a folio and read it.  Nevertheless, by that time, this thread was already posted.  However, as a forum member, you, stjr and others are a part of the MJ community.  What you post here is just as important, so the topic is online and is now being discussed.

[thelakelander]

Lake, thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I agree with the need to follow many of the steps you outline but, if our public servants did their jobs professionally and properly, it shouldn't be necessary.

You are basically saying that any proposals and/or information spouted by JTA or other government entities should be taken by the public as unreliable, undependable, misleading, incompetent, self-serving, etc. until and unless we, the public, acting on cynicism, distrust, and lack of confidence, take our own time and effort to double check and validate everything they say or do.

It's a shame that the well compensated taxpayer-paid public servants can't be counted on to provide us honest and reliable facts, proper vetting processes, and clear and reasonably independent thinking in solving our important community issues with best practices and solutions.

The worst is that other public servants, such as the Mayor and City Council, blindly rely on agents of this broken system to ratify, or make further, decisions that merely amplify the problems.  Truth be told, it is their job, as much as anyone's, to question and probe what is brought before them.  It doesn't happen nearly enough.  It's why so many of our community projects fail to deliver or end up in the scrap heat after much wasted taxpayer dollars.

So, when you cut to the chase, the answer you are suggesting, and I agree, to the question "Can JTA Be Trusted?" is "NO!".

Its not just JTA.  Lets be realistic.  Look at this city's track record.  I've sat in meetings, presentations, council hearings where information on various topics being discussed could easily be debated and questioned on both sides.  Until there is a pattern suggesting otherwise, everything Jacksonville sprouts out deserves a little extra scrutiny.  That's no knock on any individual or entity, its just the way our world currently operates.

[CS Foltz]

N you guys wonder why I keep spouting about "No vision , No plan"! I could also add to that mix  "No competence" either.......for a City of our size we appear to have just a collection of  "Good Old Boys" hard at work lining their pockets, their buddies also, with our hard earned tax dollars. We have an Administration that has 200+ AIMO's at a cost of $12 Million Dollars Annually, we have a white elephant of a Courthouse that will end up costing us at least $350 Million was the last projection and I bet it will be more that is only going in because the High Priest of justice, Judge Moran, wants a new office! We have a City that has been underfunding the Pension Fund for the JSO/Fire Dept to the tune of about $678 Million Dollars and we have a Council chock full of people who were voted into office to represent the people who voted them into office and they aren't doing squat for the public except rubber stamping a Budget that was not reviewed or questioned! By the way all figures quoted are directly from the past budget just passed by the Council! JTA/JEA both had their budgets approved without question and if you tell me they have no waste in their system, I will tell you what broom to leave on.............sorry - I don't trust JTA any further than one of their new $600K bus's will take me!

[stjr]

Until there is a pattern suggesting otherwise, everything Jacksonville sprouts out deserves a little extra scrutiny.  That's no knock on any individual or entity, its just the way our world currently operates.

Lake, you set a pretty low standard for our public officials.  So does much of the rest of our society and that's why we get some awful outcomes.  Sorry, I expect a lot more from them.  No excuses and no compromises.  We may not get perfection, but we won't even come close if we don't try.

Public officials should be professional, tolerant and interested in a variety of perspectives, open minded, of high integrity, avoid compromising positions and conflicts of interests, fiscally responsible, and always have the public's best interest at heart.  Sad to say, too many officials fail these simple principals.

[civil42806]

Until there is a pattern suggesting otherwise, everything Jacksonville sprouts out deserves a little extra scrutiny.  That's no knock on any individual or entity, its just the way our world currently operates.

Lake, you set a pretty low standard for our public officials.  So does much of the rest of our society and that's why we get some awful outcomes.  Sorry, I expect a lot more from them.  No excuses and no compromises.  We may not get perfection, but we won't even come close if we don't try.

Public officials should be professional, tolerant and interested in a variety of perspectives, open minded, of high integrity, avoid compromising positions and conflicts of interests, fiscally responsible, and always have the public's best interest at heart.  Sad to say, too many officials fail these simple principals.

quote]
"Lake, you set a pretty low standard for our public officials.  So does much of the rest of our society and that's why we get some awful outcomes.  Sorry, I expect a lot more from them."


Then expect to be dissapointed on a regular basis

[tufsu1]

we have a Council chock full of people who were voted into office to represent the people who voted them into office and they aren't doing squat for the public except rubber stamping a Budget that was not reviewed or questioned!

I'm pretty sure they reviewed and questioned this year's budget thoroughly....do you not recall the recent 3 month battle w/ the Mayor over it...or does your "vision" only look forward?