Private Profitable High Speed Rail in Texas?

[JeffreyS]

French national railway interested in bringing high-speed rail to Texas

07:20 PM CDT on Friday, September 25, 2009

By RODGER JONES / The Dallas Morning News
rmjones@dallasnews.com

The French national railway SNCF has filed a detailed proposal with the Federal Railroad Administration stating an interest in operating high-speed rail in Texas.

The route in question would run from DFW through Austin and into San Antonio. It would not be the Gulf Coast route that's been on the USDOT's official list of 10 prospective HSR corridors or the much-promoted Dallas-Houston link (including the Texas T-Bone). But Houston could be in the distance.

From Yonah Freemark on the TransportPolitic blog:

    At $13.8 billion in construction costs, SNCF expects benefits to outweigh public infrastructure costs by 170% over a period of 15 years. This project would have the highest rate of return of any of the corridors profiled in the studies presented here.

Quoting now from the proposal, as posted on a federal website:

    Speeds of up to 220 mph for HSR services are expected to generate a significant number of new trips as well as draw from the air and auto modes. Access to HSR services for both residents and visitors will be convenient due to 7 proposed stations conveniently located close to medium and large city populations, city central business districts and airports to attract residents, providing convenient and cost competitive alternative to driving and air travel.

    This HST 220 concept keeps pace for a further complete Texan HS network ("Triangle" or "Tbone" type) involving Houston, once the pertinence of HS services proven. Meanwhile, the existing corridors will serve as key feeders.

TxDOT spokesman Chris Lippincott said the SNCF filing "is the first expression we're aware of" from a potential investor-operator interested in Texas high-speed rail.

The filing isn't related to applications for stimulus money, but in response to Congressman John Mica's interest in finding out what private companies think they can make money in the U.S. That provision was inserted in legislation last year, and the French filing was in response, said FRA spokesman Warren Flatau.

SNCF's chairman has been talking up his company's interest in developing HSR in the U.S., but now it's officially stated. The other corridors cited by SNCF are in Florida, California and the Midwest.

Over the summer, the state filed applications for a chunk of $13 billion in rail-improvement stimulus money, including planning funds for high-speed corridors. The current Texas Eagle route was one of them. The DFW-San Antonio link is essentially the Eagle route.

The French company is a world leader in HSR technology and runs the TGV, which has set the world speed record for a rail vehicle -- more than 350 mph.

The interest in Texas runs counter to thinking that service here would be unprofitable. Commentators and experts have said -- perhaps thinking that this is the Texas of Giant -- that we're too spread out and that HSR service is made for the more densely populated Northeast. Of course that's not us, but anyone who's ever driven I-35 from Dallas to San Antonio can see the urbanization of this state -- three of the nation's 10 most populous cities and growing.

The French may have something here.

[JeffreyS]

The firm mentions Florida as another local they would seek for HSR development.

[CS Foltz]

I would bet dollars to donuts that what they have in mind is not Orlando to St Pete!

[Ocklawaha]

Interesting, SNCF hasn't had a bomb this big dropped on them since Hitler visited the Eifle Tower. You know, in these fairly compact 200-500 mile trips with 3 of the nations top 10 cities, plus a score of other big ones, it just might make it. Railroading is so capital intensive that considering any passenger system without a bunch of government dollars has only slight possibilities of turning a dime.

Let them have at it, but I wouldn't touch it as an investment.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

I would bet dollars to donuts that what they have in mind is not Orlando to St Pete!

Actually, that's exactly what they bid on!

Florida would be well suited to high-speed rail according to SNCF’s analysis. For $20.5 billion, the company proposes a Tampa-Orlando link by 2018 and connections west to St. Petersburg and south to Miami by 2025.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/19/breaking-sncf-proposes-development-of-high-speed-rail-in-midwest-texas-florida-and-california-corridors/

[CS Foltz]

Faye.........got no problem with private enterprise getting into the people moving enterprise! More than likely it would be done quicker,cleaner and did I say quicker? Cost effective transportation for an area is not something that should be frowned on but encouraged!! True HSR is not about moving in ten mile increments but in hundred mile plus stages. To me that is where HSR would have an edge but that requires infrastructure that is not in place yet. Current tracks in this part of the world might handle 100 mph speeds but I don't think that they could safely handle 150 or better, just not designed with that in mind! So like I said..........private enterprise can go for it, investors wish to make money on their investment so I think they would be more inclined to cross all T's and dot all I's..........I have high hopes it takes off!

[buckethead]

I don't understand the logic of leaving Houston (the fourth most popupus metropolis in the nation) out of the initial bid. 

[CS Foltz]

Maybe Houston is the texas equivalent of Jacksonville?

[buckethead]

Houston is KING in Texas. More populous than any other Texas Metro; Dallas/Fort worth coming in second.  Austin is just over a 2 hr drive away. Perhaps it is because Enron was based in Houston? Vendetta?Galveston is a short hop away as well.

I have been many times for business and that place is bustling and vibrant. They are even building houses! Something anyone from Jax who is in construction can get a chuckle out of.

Connecting Austin and Houston would seem to be the most logical first step in any Texas HSR system. Perhaps it has to do with the layout of existing rail lines and/or ROW issues?

(Uh Oh.... Did I just validate/endorse ORL/Tampa HSR?)

[thelakelander]

Metro Dallas/Fort Worth is larger than metro Houston.  While smaller, Austin and San Antonio aren't holes in the walls and are fairly close to one another.  Plus, with them you bring in huge tourism, military, educational and governmental element.  There's also a string of decent sized communities along that path, like Waco and Round Rock, while the stretch between Dallas and Houston is pretty rural.  With that said, I can see how an argument can be made for the path picked by SNCF for the initial phase.

[CS Foltz]

lake I concur! Makes sense from a numbers point of view, that is potential ridership. Geography wise fairly flat and not a lot of exotic engineering required ....so has a real chance.........I hope it takes off big time!

[tufsu1]

And the Tampa to Orlando route isn't flat?

[CS Foltz]

Tampa to Orlando is relatively flat..........I just take exception for what will be a feeder system for Mouseville using Federal Funds! This is my and your money for something that does not benefit  the state as a whole. Private Enterprise I think is a better scenario for that part of the world and the rest of Florida may get spin off from it.............like Jacksonville to Miami. That would be true HSR rather than what has been proposed which is a Airport to one city feeder that totals about 75 miles. That would cost 2.5 Billion? Not really sure about the cost total but am sure about the purpose of said system............Mouseville feeder!

[tufsu1]

Why do you keep thinking that the Tampa-Orlando route is soley that?

It has always been planned as the beginning of a system within Florida that will be extendxed to Miami...and possibly to Jax, where it would tie into other national routes.

Got to start somewhere!

[Ocklawaha]

HEY! I'VE GOT AN IDEA! LET'S REINVENT THE WHEEL!

And the Tampa to Orlando route isn't flat?

You might find this interesting old friend, but the worse grades on the old Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line, were not in the Piedmont, they were just outside of Lakeland, FL! In the days of superpower steam, the biggest locomotives worked out of Tampa on those long heavy rock trains, over those grades.

I don't understand the logic of leaving Houston (the fourth most popupus metropolis in the nation) out of the initial bid. 

Texas Electric Ry Map, the south line of Dallas LRT runs right on the grade.


Here we see something I'd love to doccument in Jacksonville, Interurban or Trolley Freight. Lakelander and I suspect there was such a thing as one line clearly went into the Talleyrand Dock area... ?? It would increase our status for reconstruction grant consideration.


Unlike Jacksonville, Plano, TX., saved the TERY depot and power house, and they have a first class white glove museum and archives, plus this for Texas Electric Combination Car/Railway Post Office/Coach/smoker. Today the new LRT pulls in on the other side of this building!

If you consider that Dallas-Waco-Austin-San Antonio, are all in a row, all big city towns or big university towns, or both. In that respect that line would be like Jacksonville-Daytona-Melbourne-West Palm-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami... String O' Pearls. There is also an existing right of way, from Dallas - Waco, that was the mainline of the TEXAS ELECTRIC RY. A major interurban road, the whole right of way follows the high power transmission lines. Houston is sort of an island, like Tampa would be without Orlando, the surrounding areas etc... Just sort of all by itself and nearly as far as FTW - SAT.

Why do you keep thinking that the Tampa-Orlando route is soley that?

It has always been planned as the beginning of a system within Florida that will be extendxed to Miami...and possibly to Jax, where it would tie into other national routes.

Got to start somewhere!

For me it's not the Orlando-Tampa thing that drives me nuts, its the determination to by-pass 90% of the population between the two, in trade for a mouse. A very rich and influential mouse, a mouse not beyond all sorts of hijinks's, in fact A RAT! Let them pay for their own branchline as the Mainline does something smart like connect everything from Daytona - Orlando - Tampa. Running from Orlando's airport is certain death as far as area residents are concerned. Another train to nowhere.

OCKLAWAHA