High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[thelakelander]

Btw, I don't even see Orlando being a "hub" for this system.  Once fully built out, Orlando's station is nothing more than a stop along the way.  The "hub" it will be, is a hub for local Orlando traffic.  By the same token, every HSR station, if developed properly, would be a mass transit hub for the community it serves.

[thelakelander]

btw...even Russia is getting high speed rail!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/business/global/25train.html?_r=2

Thanks tufsu1.

Turns out HSR and the central Florida commuter rail would cost about the same per mile, but we'd be getting new, state of the art equipment ( no diesel) and rail for our HSR courtesy of the federal government.

I see no downside to this at all.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5980.msg99787.html#msg99787

I hate to keep picking on you because its nothing personal, but you do know you need to clarify this statement.  I know you're not a fan of Sunrail, but this is flat out dishonest.  Their costs are different and what you would be paying for and receiving in return are different.

Btw, the Florida HSR plan would make a lot more sense if planners take the path of what the Midwest is doing.  Their plan is pretty logical.

[FayeforCure]

If this is the case, its best to get the most out of the money we're borrowing.  Is this the best we can do with $2.5 billion?

From a financial point of view, it's a heck of a lot better than the Central Florida Commuter Rail project you are emotionally tied to:

1. Cost of HSR project is $2.5 billion vs $1.2 billion for local Central Florida Commuter Rail project. The HSR Project will be funded 100% by federal monies. Cost per mile is similar, and what's more: Local and state taxpayers wouldn’t have to put up anything to get HSR going.
http://trains4america.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/florida-lawmakers-feet-to-the-fire-on-commuter-and-high-speed-rail/

2. SNCF expects 3.5 million trips between Tampa and Orlando in 2021, with ridership on the statewide system reaching 20 million a year by 2038.
Trains would connect Tampa with Orlando-area attractions in one-half hour and Tampa with Miami in two-and-a-half hours.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d21-SNCF-bids-on-TampaOrlando-highspeed-rail-three-other-regions-Midwest-is-biggest

Compare that to rather low ridership for the Central Florida Commuter Rail ( you can look up info on that yourself)

3. The predicted ridership will pay for operations. The Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

4. Given the above financial considerations, and the fact that Floridians don't want to pay for transit, the way they indirectly pay for roads and air travel, the most economically feasible project, is simply the best showcase.

Now, from an urban planning point of view, I can see your point lakelander. The Central Florida Commuter Rail will encourage dense development along the rail line. It has also been said that it's these development interests that have propelled the Central Florida commuter rail rather than actual projected ridership.

Anything to dispute here lakelander?

The only things I forgot to add in are:

5. For every mile of new track built, 31 jobs are created vs using existing rail. Florida Families who can contribute to our economy again, creating a multiplier effect for our economy.

http://www.wesh.com/money/20446050/detail.html


6.  Estimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/27/co-high-hopes-for-high-speed-rail/news-politics/

What a huge stimulus to our economy,..........yet another positive financial consideration!

[thelakelander]

Anything to dispute here lakelander?

Sure.  I'm your huckleberry.

From a financial point of view, it's a heck of a lot better than the Central Florida Commuter Rail project you are emotionally tied to:

1. Cost of HSR project is $2.5 billion vs $1.2 billion for local Central Florida Commuter Rail project.

I'm not emotionally tied to either project.  If anything, I'd prefer a statewide Amtrak corridor service to replace both of them.  With that said, your commuter rail numbers are cooked and you know it.  That number includes a couple of hundred million dollars worth of highway overpasses that were built, regardless of if Sunrail comes on line or not.  That number also includes annual O&M costs for a set number of years, ROW acquisition costs and upgrades to the CSX S line to handle shifted Central Florida freight traffic.  The HSR number does not include previous ROW costs or potential annual O&M cost.  If you're going to compare them head to head, at least come to the table with the same standard judging criteria.

The HSR Project will be funded 100% by federal monies. Cost per mile is similar, and what's more: Local and state taxpayers wouldn't have to put up anything to get HSR going.
http://trains4america.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/florida-lawmakers-feet-to-the-fire-on-commuter-and-high-speed-rail/

We do pay federal taxes, so we'll pay either way.  there is no such thing as "free money."  Btw, who will pay to operate this thing?  Is it a setup similar to Jacksonville's skyway, another "free gift" from the feds?

2. SNCF expects 3.5 million trips between Tampa and Orlando in 2021, with ridership on the statewide system reaching 20 million a year by 2038.

The estimates for the skyway were pretty impressive too.  If there's one thing about statistics, they can be easily cooked to support the outcome you desire.

Trains would connect Tampa with Orlando-area attractions in one-half hour and Tampa with Miami in two-and-a-half hours.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d21-SNCF-bids-on-TampaOrlando-highspeed-rail-three-other-regions-Midwest-is-biggest

That's nice but how fast will they get me to Winter Haven from Orlando or Plant City to Tampa?

Compare that to rather low ridership for the Central Florida Commuter Rail ( you can look up info on that yourself)

Better yet, compare it development or job creation-wise to the Sunrail project.  Personally, the CSX upgrades do more for the state than Orlando's passenger operations would do.  I know a lot of out-of-work industrial workers in Central Florida who would love to take up one of the new rail/distribution/manufacturing jobs generated from the proposed Winter Haven yard.  If you don't know, that's an area that has been devasted by the decline of the citrus processing, phosphate industry, manufacturing and real estate markets.

3. The predicted ridership will pay for operations. The Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

Baloney.  Very few mass transit systems pay for themselves at the ticket box.  Don't expect this to be any different.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

This is a possibility.  However, if it fails to pull in the promised ridership it would be our own "big dig" and kill every other rail project proposed in this state.

4. Given the above financial considerations, and the fact that Floridians don't want to pay for transit, the way they indirectly pay for roads and air travel, the most economically feasible project, is simply the best showcase.

A statewide intercity corridor service would be economically feasible.  However, Florida's HSR project and economically feasible don't belong in the same sentence. 

Now, from an urban planning point of view, I can see your point lakelander. The Central Florida Commuter Rail will encourage dense development along the rail line. It has also been said that it's these development interests that have propelled the Central Florida commuter rail rather than actual projected ridership.

Well economic development stimulated by rail lines in cities like Charlotte, Salt Lake City and Houston has been proven to blow away original ridership estimates for those projects.  Partially, because dense transit friendly infill development provides these systems with a dedicated everyday user base.  Nevertheless, don't overlook the other benefits of Sunrail.  They include:

1. Improved statewide freight rail capacity and service.

2. A new railyard and industrial hub in an area of the state suffering from a decline in industrial production.

3. The potential establishment of the CSX A line as an intercity passenger rail connection between Central and North Florida.

4. An easier path for a commuter rail line on the same track between DT Jax and Clay County to provide an alternative to the longest daily commutes in the state.

5. The construction of an intermodal railyard at Jaxport.

6. The construction of the Springfield Bypass rail line, which would spur industrial development in Nassau County and free up Northside Jax rail corridors for commuter rail.

The only things I forgot to add in are:

5. For every mile of new track built, 31 jobs are created vs using existing rail. Florida Families who can contribute to our economy again, creating a multiplier effect for our economy.

http://www.wesh.com/money/20446050/detail.html

Only if you don't include the economic spinoffs I mentioned above.

6.  Estimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/27/co-high-hopes-for-high-speed-rail/news-politics/

What a huge stimulus to our economy,..........yet another positive financial consideration!

Both would create jobs during physical construction.  However, one would create a ton more in the long run for a fraction of the price.

[Ocklawaha]

I agree that we'll NEVER see it built out to either map of dreams. The danger I see in those maps is that some highly "respected" planners, the State DOT, Rail office, etc... Could come up with such a STUPID IMAGE and expect us to swallow it. Any train that misses Jacksonville, is a train that missed Florida's railroad hub.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Update on the price of a one way fare.  It may be closer to $30.

TAMPA - As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation's first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

On Friday, 40 states will file detailed high-speed rail project applications with the Federal Railroad Administration. In December, President Barack Obama will announce which will get money from the $787 billion federal stimulus plan to generate jobs.

If Florida gets the $2.5 billion it seeks, it will represent a stunning reversal of political fortunes â€" after 25 years of promise and setbacks â€" that will provide thousands of new jobs as early as 2011, when construction on the 95-mile Tampa-Orlando segment could begin.

The Florida funding request also covers planning an Orlando-Miami segment that could complete a 361-mile high-speed rail corridor between Tampa and South Florida in 2017.

That 180 mph-plus East Coast corridor would cost about $8 billion, not including right-of-way purchases. Amtrak could provide additional service from Jacksonville south.

Potential drawbacks â€" including construction and operations costs and how much demand there might be to pay $30 for a 64-minute ride from Tampa to Orlando International Airport â€" appear to have been relegated to the background.

Why? The prospects of jobs â€" at a time when it's common for hundreds of people to vie for a handful of positions.

"High speed rail will bring an unprecedented number of new jobs to Florida, with the overriding goal of supporting the federal recovery plan," said U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, who has participated in several White House discussions on the topic this year.

"At the same time, anyone who has traveled around the country or to Europe knows how important the investment can be to modernize transportation," she said. "The high-speed rail project can provide a real shot in the arm you don't see happening from real estate."

Estimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

Florida's prospects

Interviews with congressional and state officials and local business interests reveal advantages Florida is expected to have when the Obama Administration makes its initial funding choices:

Environmental plans for the Tampa-Orlando corridor are complete, unlike other U.S. corridors.

Florida is the only state that has acquired a high-speed rail right of way â€" the median of Interstate 4, estimated to be worth more than $100 billion.

Construction could begin as early as 2011, providing the Obama Administration with potential political gains in an important presidential election swing state.

Forty states are competing for $8 billion. At least $5 billion more from annual federal budgets could be allocated to 10 high-speed corridors nationwide.

Florida's proponents acknowledge the tough competition, but say it is advantageous that their bid covers the construction of the entire project from Tampa to Orlando, unlike states such as California, where state money would be required in addition to the federal dollars.

Competitors could seize upon Florida not proposing some state matching money as a point in their favor, National Association of Railroad Passengers executive director Ross Capon said. But Capon said another factor â€" how operational costs would be covered â€" could play a role. Those details have not been released.

Another advantage for Florida is that its lobbying effort enjoys unusual bipartisan participation. Supporters include the Republican governor, both Florida U.S. senators, eight Democratic and three Republican congressmen; 21 state Republican and seven Democratic legislators; and a broad representation of business groups, the advocacy group FastRailConnectUs.com says.

Vice President Joe Biden and U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in June made public comments supportive of Florida's rail plans, with LaHood saying Florida and California were leading contenders. LaHood is scheduled to address a transportation conference in Orlando next month.

The business community has rallied to the cause, as well.

"Our company has a strong interest in transportation initiatives that benefit all sectors of the economy," said Becca Bides, spokeswoman for Busch Entertainment Corp. "As a significant employer in both Orlando and Tampa regions, we also are interested in bettering transportation options for our 11,000 employees."

"We are encouraged by the opportunities that high-speed rail could bring to Florida," Walt Disney World manager of media relations Zoraya Suarez said. "We would work with local officials to place a station for the new system on or near our property, taking into consideration the needs of both tourists and local residents."

One initial drawback in both Tampa and Orlando would be the lack of state-of-the-art mass transit to provide connections to and from high-speed rail in 2014. Hillsborough County's first light rail lines serving downtown would not be possible until 2018 â€" pending approval of a 1 cent county tax, among other factors.

More than mobility

While high-speed rail evokes notions of a fast, comfortable trip commonplace in Europe and Japan, a recent Washington policy shift emphasizes economic development and wise land use that a tandem of state-of-the-art local transit and high-speed rail can promote.

"My experience is that an investment in transit intersects with land use and economic development," said G.B. Arrington, a principal with the transportation development firm PB PlaceMaking, who helped write a new Federal Transit Administration policy on ranking transportation projects for funding that took effect in July.

"For places that are successful, it is all about having a long-term vision of a community. Florida's density and activity centers make high-speed rail a logical fit."

That's the groundwork Lakeland businessman Doc Dockery produced in gaining voter approval in 2000 for a constitutional amendment for a high-speed rail system. Then former Gov. Jeb Bush persuaded voters in 2004 to remove it.

Former Hillsborough County commissioner Ed Turanchik, who is leading the high-speed rail lobbying in Florida, has invoked the performance of University of Florida quarterback Tim Tebow in his efforts to build support.

"High speed rail is the Tim Tebow of transportation," Turanchik said. "It's a game changer.

Facts:

Speed: Up to 150 mph between Tampa and Orlando, averaging 86 mph; 180 mph on the Orlando-Miami segment, averaging 102 mph. By contrast, Amtrak's Acela service between Boston and Washington is billed as high-speed rail, but the trains average only about half their possible top speed of 150 mph because of track limitations and en route stops.

Travel time:
Tampa to Walt Disney World:
High speed rail: 42 minutes
Car: 78 minutes

Tampa to Orlando International Airport:
High speed rail: 64 minutes
Car: 88 minutes

Annual ridership: 2.8 million to 3.2 million passengers, with trains making 14 to 22 round trips daily on the Tampa-Orlando corridor.

Estimated costs from Tampa: $25 one-way to Disney; $30 one-way to Orlando International Airport

Yet to be answered:

Can people really give up their cars?

A report by the Washington-based Cato Institute released earlier this month warned that "high speed rail is not 'Interstate 2.0,'" a network that would transform national transportation the way the Eisenhower Administration's Interstate highway program did.

The average American traveled 4,000 miles on interstates in 2007, but would only travel 60 miles a year on high speed rail, the Cato report stated.


Reporter Ted Jackovics can be reached at (813) 259-7817.

Reader Comments

Voice your opinion by posting a comment.

Posted by ( tdave365 ) on 09/26/2009 at 08:34 am.

$30 is NOT a lot of money in exchange for fluid mobility between Orlando and Tampa. When gas prices are low it might cost as much or less to get in a car, but who the heck is focusing only on COST? Someone driving has to push through high speed traffic (most folks are breaking the speed limit if only because they HAVE to in order to avoid a wreck), thereby risking life limb just to enjoy a Saturday. I would much rather hand $30 to someone, load my family into a train car and spend time with them laughing and playing them for 45 minutes, than avoiding their death and soaking up all the stress that comes from that. I would make a Tampa to Orlando trip many times as opposed to rare "project vacation" times if I could do it easily, effortlessly, and without stress. A high speed rail connection would allow just for that.

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Posted by ( cavedog_the_remix ) on 09/26/2009 at 08:41 am.

Rail based systems are a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem. I urge all of you to do a search using the terms 'Light Rail Myths', and see for yourself.

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Posted by ( jmoore001 ) on 09/26/2009 at 08:51 am.

tdave365 - yeah $30 to LOAD your family into a train wouldn't be so bad, BUT it would be $240 roundtrip for a family of 4.....you can't have fun laughing with your family in your car (we played numerous memory and spoting games on road trips when I was a kid) or do you have to have a board game or video games to do it....you also say "if I could do it easily, effortlessly, and without stress."...the problem with taking the train is you have NO flexibility....you save 15 minutes and yet you have no car to transport your family to a new location, to go out and grab a bite to eat, to go shopping at the outlet malls...this is idotic.....now if they had numerous lines and numerous stops on each line so you could easily navigate a state or a city, then it makes sense...but this makes no sense what so ever...having a train take you between airports to save less than 30 minutes....why would I not just rent a car in Orlando and drive for convenience...I have to drag my luggage on and off the train and then to the rental car spot...this is nonsensical....once again, which politicians (or there family members)are going to make millions off of this deal....clearly someone is....

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Posted by ( Concerned_Taxpayer ) on 09/26/2009 at 09:13 am.

More crap from Choo Choo Charlie and his Orlando developer buddies; take $2.5 BILLION from the taxpayers to pad their pockets to accomplish much less transportation than what Amtrak and California does everyday in a similar rail corridor between San Diego and Los Angeles. For $29 per ROUND TRIP you can catch anyone one of 16 trains in each direction daily and make the 128 mile trip in less than 1 hour and 40 minutes, running at speeds up to 90 mph, hassle free. And guess what, Amtrak even stops at places in between to give their citizens the opportunity to ride, also. Amtrak offered to do the same thing for FDOT and Florida back in 2000 using existing CSX trackage but the bozos dumped the plan in favor of giving CSX nearly a $BILLION in corporate welfare to improve CSX's Florida freight profits but disguised it as Orlando commuter rail, SunRail. I sure hope the voters in my native Florida wise up soon! Corruption is a sin that should lead to a jail cell, not an entitlement that leads to more ill gotten public cash. So why not put the public's money to work rebuilding existing rail tracks, signals, and stations right thru the center of towns like Clearwater, Plant City, Lakeland, Auburndale, Haines City, Kissimmee, plus Tampa and Orlando, where they have always been, and do it for a few million rather than wasting $BILLIONS in the middle of an Interstate Highway, away from where the cities and their citizens want people to live, work and play? California may have other problems, but this time, on this topic, they are far ahead of Florida and our elected leaders, or are we just stuck with the worst government special interest money can buy, forever.

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Posted by ( jmk22 ) on 09/26/2009 at 10:34 am.

How can Tampa even think about a bullet train? They can't even get a decent bus line to run right. While it would be nice to take a train to Disney on the weekends with the kids and save my driving sanity, at $30 A PERSON ONE WAY, there is no way I could afford that! What kids of salaries do the people thinking up this nonsense nring in to even think that a $60 round trip to Orlando even makes sense? Instead of spending millions on a train that will never work right, Iorio and her friends need to buy plane tickets to real cities and check out what they are doing as far as mass tranist and duplicate. The wheel has already been invented and now Tampa just wants to give it a flat.

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Posted by ( cheluzal ) on 09/26/2009 at 05:31 pm.

$60 ride to save 30 minutes in some instance? Pass.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/25/251548/florida-leading-contender-high-speed-rail-funding/c_8/#comments

[Ocklawaha]

State of the Art, American High Speed Rail.

I am claiming that the mix of tourist AND resident commuters is very beneficial for HSR. Being fixated on primarily resident commuters would be a mistake.

Fixated primarily on resident commuters? Faye, what Lakelander and I have been saying is WHAT RESIDENT COMMUTERS? Except for some apartments down at the end of SR436 near OIA, it would be quicker for anyone else in Orlando to just drive out toward the parks. There won't be a dozen commuter per train!

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

This is misleading, the State of Florida is tossing us a bone with the FEC route. They have ZERO intentions of building a High Speed Link to Jacksonville in our lifetimes.

Turns out HSR and the central Florida commuter rail would cost about the same per mile, but we'd be getting new, state of the art equipment ( no diesel) and rail for our HSR courtesy of the federal government.

Faye, this is where the fantasyland approach has done you, and a large group of local, state, and national, politicians a real disservice. State of the art doesn't mean "no diesel."  It COULD mean that, but it could also be any number of High Speed Diesels, Turbines, GenSets, Hybrids etc.. Because our HSR might or might not be diesel doesn't tell us a thing about state of the art, to find that, we'll need to look at the track construction plans.

This is what is frustrating in this thread, almost everyone posting here has a direct connection with railroads, or transportation planning or consulting, and we're all telling you the same thing, whoa! take it slow! Let's review this in detail before jumping off a cliff. None of this is personal, it's about Jacksonville, and Florida, and our passion. I suspect one of our on-line consultants is working for the project, but even he seems to be taking a critical look at these details. A "State of the Art Train" from nowhere to nowhere, is still a loser. 

Example: The real 7002, a Pennsylvania RR. 4-4-2 "Atlantic Type",  was the world steam speed record holder (127.1 MPH). This (unofficial but true according to Railroad Standard Time) record was set back in 1905.

Pretty darn "State of the Art."

The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

Yes tusfu1, but airplanes don't stop in Palatka, Deland, Sanford and Winter Park. Depending on how many "spokes" one wants to build, a hub and spokes rail system could get very expensive, with very little bang for the buck. When a single longitudinal passenger train can cover several mini-corridors in one pass, there is no reason to bust up the trip, thus adding, jobs, locomotives and needless other equipment and facilities. Example: DC to Chicago, ONE TRAIN, Washington-Cumberland, Cumberland-Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh-Cleveland, Cleveland-Toledo, Toledo-Chicago. How many changes would that equate to for a through passenger beyond any one of the hubs?

I don't disagree Ock...I'm just saying that sometimes a direct route is not feasible...and that a transfer point might make sense.

For example, there is no need to build a direct rail line that goes from Jax. to Sarasota....just have a line that goes through Tampa...that way someone who is coming from Orlando could travel through Lakeland to Tampa, then transfer to Sarasota

Note that when we shook of the cobwebs, tufsu1 and I agree on this point. If indeed the state ever does build high speed rail into Jacksonville (odds of about .00001%) then somewhere around Daytona-Melbourne would be the junction with the I-4 Mickey Route. This WOULD make a small HSR hub out of whichever place got the junction *I'll call SANFORD, anyone living long enough, remember you heard it here first. But adding the Southeast and Gulf Coast HSR projects 2 complete systems with 3 routes projected to Jax, plus the addition of Amtrak and Commuter Rail, nobody else in Florida will touch us as THE HUB. Anybody, intercity rail, Amtrak, franchise, connecting or otherwise, will pass through the 14 giant sandstone columns of Jacksonville Terminal, THAT is our future.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

At $30 one way to save only 30 minutes of time, I really question the ridership numbers.  With that fare you've killed the already small percentage of every day commuters willing to use it.  As a tourist, with a family of four, there is no way I'd drop $240 roundtrip to save 30 minutes on a ride from Tampa to Orlando. 

If I were Amtrak, I'd immediately upgrade the Tampa to Orlando corridor, add a few more stops and compete head-to-head with this boondoggle.  My guess is that with fares 1/3 the price, they'll attract more tourist and local commuters.

[CS Foltz]

lake ....that is about the best idea that I have seen to this point! Service is already in place and just needs to be enhanced  for  quite a bit less money (no matter who's money)Hub in Orlando makes no sense to me what  so ever...........Jacksonville is a better place for a Hub. The idea that once the Orlando boon doogle is completed then to Miami from there and to Jax from there is ludacris. Have said before.........Mouseville wants a railroad let them build it! Florida is not best served by a system in the middle of the state and expansions thought to move out in two directions from a middle? Not smart!

[buckethead]

Naysayers!


The MCO / DT Tampa HSR project would be a SHOWCASE!

It doesn't need to be functional, successful, or cost effective.

[CS Foltz]

Yeah.............but it looks real good right?......simply marvelous!

[JeffreyS]

30 dollars one way I thought this HSR vs Amtrak upgrades was a serious debate but it is a joke. With this info most of the supporters should jump ship. I was just the person on the Amtrak side of the argument before and now well 30 dollars one way is a non starter.

[Ocklawaha]

$30 dollars to do what Amtrak can/could/and DOES DO for $10 dollars. Ten bucks is the Amtrak coach fare Orlando - Tampa, hey and you can leave from downtown and arrive in downtown.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Ock do you have a travel time on that Amtrak and what could it be upgraded to?

[JeffreyS]

Wouldn't the Amtrak train have a dining car and a bar?