Rail in Tampa Bay - TBARTA Style

[tufsu1]

This is sadly comical...a 52 mile route...at least $2.8 billion....about 20,000 riders a day....and that's the best route!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/28/tbarta-wesley-chapel-st-pete-rail-route-would-draw/news-money/

This is why the voters down there will not likely cote for increased taxes....and/or why they may be building special-use lanes way before they even touch light rail.

[Joe]

I don't understand. Between $58 million and $109 million PER MILE for a light rail line???

Is the whole damn thing supposed to be elevated? How on earth are costs getting this high?

I consider myself a supporter of rail-based transit - but I'm getting sick of all these bloated proposals coming from all levels of government. I don't think any electorate should get behind projects that are this expensive.

[Ocklawaha]

It's a FLORIDA thing, take any simple transportation job or technology, turn the FDOT neanderthals loose on it, and come back with a wild bloated project. I bet it could be done for 1/2 of that price.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

remember that they ahve to get across Tampa Bay....that's a 6+ mile long structure

[thelakelander]

I like this comment:

Posted by ( Concerned_Taxpayer ) on 08/29/2009 at 06:51 am.

Wake up from your funk FDOT, TBARTA, and Tampa Bay politicians. You say "the Wesley Chapel-Tampa-St. Petersburg rail route could cost between $2.8 and $5.7 BILLION for construction and equipment with annual operating and maintenance costs of $39.1 million and take 25 years to build?"San Diego built a world class 13 mile start-up light rail system in two years for $80 million. They bought 153 miles of freight track and right of way from the Southern Pacific Railway for only $18 million, some of which was for additional light rail phases.Is public transit really that much more expensive to own and build in Florida than it is in California or do you think we're all a bunch of crack heads that won't see the difference when you want to waste public money on your overpriced planning or give another sweetheart deal to CSX Railroad?Obviously it's time for more political and bureaucratic change in Florida!

You have to crawl before you can walk or run.

Tampa has an easier path to an affordable starter line than we do.  Freight traffic there is insignificant compared to what runs on Jacksonville's lines.  Imo, they should get their feet wet by attempting to purchase or lease the seldom used CSX line that runs through downtown and throwing a DMU on it (before attempting to raise taxes).  While it won't immediately get you to the airport or USF (make this a phase II), it would connect Tampa's major urban core destinations (Ybor, DT, Univ. of Tampa, Hyde Park, SoHo, etc.).  The same could be done with the seldom used CSX line between DT St. Pete and Clearwater.  Unfortunately, the way they are going, they will kill the idea before it ever takes root.  

[FayeforCure]

I like this comment:

Posted by ( Concerned_Taxpayer ) on 08/29/2009 at 06:51 am.

Wake up from your funk FDOT, TBARTA, and Tampa Bay politicians. You say "the Wesley Chapel-Tampa-St. Petersburg rail route could cost between $2.8 and $5.7 BILLION for construction and equipment with annual operating and maintenance costs of $39.1 million and take 25 years to build?"San Diego built a world class 13 mile start-up light rail system in two years for $80 million. They bought 153 miles of freight track and right of way from the Southern Pacific Railway for only $18 million, some of which was for additional light rail phases.Is public transit really that much more expensive to own and build in Florida than it is in California or do you think we're all a bunch of crack heads that won't see the difference when you want to waste public money on your overpriced planning or give another sweetheart deal to CSX Railroad?Obviously it's time for more political and bureaucratic change in Florida!

You have to crawl before you can walk or run.

Tampa has an easier path to an affordable starter line than we do.  Freight traffic there is insignificant compared to what runs on Jacksonville's lines.  Imo, they should get their feet wet by attempting to purchase or lease the seldom used CSX line that runs through downtown and throwing a DMU on it (before attempting to raise taxes).  While it won't immediately get you to the airport or USF (make this a phase II), it would connect Tampa's major urban core destinations (Ybor, DT, Univ. of Tampa, Hyde Park, SoHo, etc.).  The same could be done with the seldom used CSX line between DT St. Pete and Clearwater.  Unfortunately, the way they are going, they will kill the idea before it ever takes root.  

Hmmm. since Tampa "peed on CSX's parade," per John Mica, CSX hasn't been very inclined to agree to anything:

One of our concerns with the Orlando rail plan is how it might affect Tampa and Lakeland. CSX told us they are moving more freight trains to this side of the state and wouldn't allow passenger trains on freight lines here. What are your thoughts on that?

That's not true. What they have said is that their plans right now wouldn't be to do anything. I don't have a proposal from this area. That's why I'm saying this area has to get in the mix.

Most of existing rights of way are owned by CSX. If you pee on CSX's parade in Central Florida, do you think they're going to cooperate with other entities?

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/dec/14/co-getting-rail-out-of-the-station/

I'm a light rail supporter. Maybe they can get some lower bids.

[thelakelander]

Typically LRT is more expensive to implement than commuter rail.  As for Tampa, a signficant portion of their LRT plan uses CSX ROW.  Only a fool would not attempt to cooperate with the very same company it needs permission from to run LRT on that company's ROW. 

TBARTA: Wesley Chapel to St. Pete rail route would draw most riders

By TED JACKOVICS | The Tampa Tribune

Published: August 28, 2009

TAMPA - A 52-mile passenger rail route between Wesley Chapel, Tampa and St. Petersburg would draw the highest ridership among five potential light rail lines under study by the Tampa Bay Regional Transportation Authority.

A 25.4 mile rail route between from Carrollwood to Westshore, downtown Tampa and Brandon ranked second in potential ridership, followed by Clearwater-Carillon-Tampa, Clearwater-North Pinellas-USF and Clearwater-St. Petersburg rail lines.

TBARTA released a draft report for discussion today that adds detail to the seven-county initiative for a combination of rail and bus transit routes, with the first service expected by 2035 provided local counties can generate funding to draw matching funds.

For example, the Wesley Chapel-Tampa-St. Petersburg rail route could cost between $2.8 billion and $5.7 billion for construction and equipment with annual operating and maintenance costs of $39.1 million, the TBARTA report created for the Florida Department of Transportation showed. It would draw between 14,950 and 25,199 daily boardings.

Officials emphasized the routes and costs were projections with a wide degree of variance developed so TBARTA members could begin to assign priorities for planning purposes.

Details of where stations would be located on each route and what technology for rail routes could be determined within two years, said Cassandra Ecker, transportation planning group manager for Jacobs Engineering's Tampa office, which provides technical assistance for TBARTA.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/28/tbarta-wesley-chapel-st-pete-rail-route-would-draw/news-money/

LRT it may be, but cheaper than commuter rail? No way.

[FayeforCure]

Typically LRT is more expensive to implement than commuter rail.  As for Tampa, a signficant portion of their LRT plan uses CSX ROW.  Only a fool would not attempt to cooperate with the very same company it needs permission from to run LRT on that company's ROW. 

TBARTA: Wesley Chapel to St. Pete rail route would draw most riders

By TED JACKOVICS | The Tampa Tribune

Published: August 28, 2009

TAMPA - A 52-mile passenger rail route between Wesley Chapel, Tampa and St. Petersburg would draw the highest ridership among five potential light rail lines under study by the Tampa Bay Regional Transportation Authority.

A 25.4 mile rail route between from Carrollwood to Westshore, downtown Tampa and Brandon ranked second in potential ridership, followed by Clearwater-Carillon-Tampa, Clearwater-North Pinellas-USF and Clearwater-St. Petersburg rail lines.

TBARTA released a draft report for discussion today that adds detail to the seven-county initiative for a combination of rail and bus transit routes, with the first service expected by 2035 provided local counties can generate funding to draw matching funds.

For example, the Wesley Chapel-Tampa-St. Petersburg rail route could cost between $2.8 billion and $5.7 billion for construction and equipment with annual operating and maintenance costs of $39.1 million, the TBARTA report created for the Florida Department of Transportation showed. It would draw between 14,950 and 25,199 daily boardings.

Officials emphasized the routes and costs were projections with a wide degree of variance developed so TBARTA members could begin to assign priorities for planning purposes.

Details of where stations would be located on each route and what technology for rail routes could be determined within two years, said Cassandra Ecker, transportation planning group manager for Jacobs Engineering's Tampa office, which provides technical assistance for TBARTA.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/28/tbarta-wesley-chapel-st-pete-rail-route-would-draw/news-money/

LRT it may be, but cheaper than commuter rail? No way.

The LRT routes may make more sense in terms of ridership, so cheaper is not always better. But I'm beginning to think you own CSX shares.

[thelakelander]

I'm beginning to think you own stock in a company CSX put out of business.

Seriously though, $5.2 billion is ridiculous for LRT.  That number makes HSR seem like pocket change.  Its even more insane to refuse to work with the company (CSX in this case) who's ROW you'll need to pull your plan off (luckily for Tampa's sake, I don't think their leaders are giving CSX the middle finger).  Nevertheless, given the cost and economic climate, it may be better to evaluate other options/routes that may be more realistic if they seriously want taxpayers to vote to tax themselves for this system.

[Ocklawaha]

Commuter rail can be had for as little as $2 - 5 million a mile, including crossing protection and some capacity improvements, very simple 300' platforms, a basic "economy style" CR.

While I  have seen LRT for well under $20 million a mile, I would assign that sort of cost to streetcar or rapid streetcar today. (keeping in mind streetcar is a type of LRT, which is also a type of CR) LRT might be closer to $50 Million a mile for a basic system.

Operations wise, electric is cheaper to operate and maintain then diesel, or hybrids, just due to mechanics.
LRT offers much more frequent service with headways anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes, while CR generally has headways much farther apart except for rush hours.

You are correct, the only way to do rail in the Tampa/St. Pete area is to deal with a railroad, and the only railroad there is CSX. They might also use medians, side of the road, elevated, subway, or electric transmission line rights of way for LRT, while CR is pretty much stuck with the railroad.

The lines from Tampa, go West towards Clearwater, North to Brooksville, East to Lakeland - Jax, SE to Bartow - (possible Miami), South to Sarasota. All CSX except for the end of a couple of the branchlines.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Looking at the Tampa LRT plan, most of it runs on active CSX ROW.  Regardless of how someone may feel about the company, some sort of agreement will have to be reached for this thing to become reality.

[FayeforCure]

I'm beginning to think you own stock in a company CSX put out of business.

I'll be up front and tell you that I do not own any RR stocks, and NEVER did..

But thanks for letting me know that you own CSX stock,..........that explains a lot.

[tufsu1]

Faye...where did Lake admit to owning CSX stock?

[thelakelander]

that is of course, unless you use amtrak's corridor improvements yourself Faye, and then there isnt any real ROW cost

Stephen, Tampa is a different animal.  The Amtrak corridor does not go anywhere near USF, Clearwater, St. Pete, TIA, etc.  The only thing the Amtrak corridor would provide is better access to Lakeland, Brandon and Orlando.  However, this runs parallel with the HSR corridor.

[thelakelander]

Faye...where did Lake admit to owning CSX stock?

I'm sorry to be a disappointment to you all but I do not own stock in CSX.  I just believe its better to negotiate with them (than giving them the middle finger), if the plans are to possibly use their property for mass transit.