3Rd Largest City on the East Coast

[thelakelander]

In my wacky opinion, What Ock is saying about Jacksonville and it's city limit and consolidation is the same as what lake is saying about metro area.  Many metro areas are about proximity, for instance if St. Petersburg and perhaps Clearwater wasn't so close to Tampa, Tampa would be the same size as Jax.  However, the fact is both Clearwater and St. Pete are within Tampa's metro area just like the fact that the consolidated city  of Jax boost our populous.

If Jax would not have annexed cities like South Jacksonville and Murray Hill, then perhaps today they may have been what Clearwater or Temple Terrace is to Tampa.  However, there are five counties in our metro area and four in Tampa's so it really doesn't matter.  Earlier in this thread I mentioned "urban area" statistics as something I routinely go by.  This number is generally tabulated the same for all urbanized centers of population, which is something you don't get with municipal limit comparisons.

City limit vs metro area either side you fall on it's factual.  So why not embrace the consolidation and run with it.  Miami uses the convienence of Ft. Lauderdale to boost it's metro numbers just like we use our entire county to boost our city numbers.  What is the difference?  They are both facts!

So is Yakutat being the largest city in the United States, trumping both Jacksonville and NYC.

Miami does not use Ft. Lauderdale to boost its metro numbers.  They just happen to be two cities in the same urbanized area, similar to Jacksonville and Orange Park or Jacksonville Beach.  There's nothing wrong with embracing consolidation.  The problem arises when one attempts to compare and sell based on flawed data (or data that can't be accurately compared head-to-head).  Since municipal limits range in size with no direct relationship with urbanized development, its a flawed formula for directly comparing places that may have a different political makeup. 

In any event, one can go around and do a DVI-type sell of saying Jax is bigger than it really is, but its sort of like saying a PCT is just like a real streetcar or that downtown does not have a homeless or parking problem.  You may trick someone the first time, but you set them up to leave with a poor taste in their mouth after witnessing reality.  As Ock says, its like peeing on someone's leg and telling them its raining. 

[heights unknown]

I agree with all you've said Lake.  And regarding Fort Lauderdale in Miami metro, remember, Fort Lauderdale was a very small city and even smaller town when they started keeping track of this urban/metro/msa thing.  88,000 is the population of Fort Lauderdale I think back in the 60's, probably less than that, while on the other hand, Miami was over 200,000; so it's true, Ft. Lauderdale just happened to be in Miami's backyard to be included in the "pop" numbers.  And then Ft. Lauderdale burgeoned in population so now you have two major cities in one metro/MSA area.

Heights Unknow

[Keith-N-Jax]

As asked in other quarters, does size really matter or is it the quality of the experience? 

If we focus on our quality of life, everything else will take care of itself: economic development, self-esteem, recognition, being a world-class city, an attractive place to move to, etc.

Unfortunately, too often, Jacksonville (and Florida) relies on slogans, gimmicks, and quick fixes to address its "ills".  These are often short sighted and don't hold water for the long term.  Just witness the City Council's last minute jump into the budget process were uninformed Council members are instant experts toying with the essence of our City in a relative few minutes of time - unconcerned and unaware of what the long term consequences of their actions may really be.  So continues the most reliable of Jacksonville traditions - going for the superficial and glamor, avoiding the responsible and thoughtful, and never planning or visioning.  We are destined at this rate to spin wheels for the foreseeable future without relief.  There is no "wake up" in sight.
The City Council will spend more time talking reactively about Jags tickets, parades, minor commissions and boards, self congratulatory "honors", incentives for more growth, decorating offices, pointing fingers, etc. than they will addressing proactively quality of life issues such as education, safety, culture, recreation, environment, transit, health care, etc.

I agree with stjr on this one. Even though I view the Jags as a forum of recreation.

[braeburn]

As asked in other quarters, does size really matter or is it the quality of the experience? 

The quality of the experience - "the motion of the ocean" so to speak - is pointless if you cannot reach the beach...

...Anyways... We are a fortunate community in that we love our city, believe in our city, and want to see it grow and flourish. It is, afterall, our home!

[Ocklawaha]

In any event, one can go around and do a DVI-type sell of saying Jax is bigger than it really is, but its sort of like saying a PCT is just like a real streetcar or that downtown does not have a homeless or parking problem.  You may trick someone the first time, but you set them up to leave with a poor taste in their mouth after witnessing reality.  As Ock says, its like peeing on someone's leg and telling them its raining. 

Yes lake, I sure do say that about the PCT buses that some idiots call trolleys. But I'm thinking some of you are missing my point. It's not that we are cheating anyone, we are simply different in our makeup. Anyone wanting to relocate can read the numbers and explore our city without restriction. If they want to consider just the population within city limits then then the numbers they get from us are morally, ethic'ly, Spiritually, physically, Positively, absolutely, Undeniably, and reliably, our LEGAL POPULATION! What I'm saying is we have people out in our cyber arena shouting NO! ...and I'm yelling back YES! WE ARE NUMBER 3 ON THE EAST COAST. If they want our Metro Numbers, we give them the facts and we are number 40... But here on MJ or anywhere we travel we shouldn't hold back on either FACT.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Why stop at 3rd largest?  Just go ahead and say we're the largest city outside of Alaska, making us the largest city on the East Coast.  With statistics we can always pick a choose certain numbers that may make us look superior on paper although street level reveals a completely different viewpoint.

If we were truly the third largest place on the east coast, we would already have rail and more buildings than parking lots downtown regardless of poor or good city leadership.  We would also be considered to be more of an international city as opposed to a regional one.

I'm not saying people should hold back facts, but we should be well aware of what all of these numbers mean and how to properly put them in relation to other places when attempting to compare with other places.  Municipal numbers simply aren't apples to apples in most cases because a region's urban development and true population is not dictated by imaginary municipal limits.  The municipal numbers are what the are, but they just don't reflect the true size of a place (Jax, Daytona, Orange Park or any where else).

[stjr]

Lake, I agree with you as previously noted.  Our obsession with "size" of any kind shows our insecurity about "quality".  We should focus on being the BEST, not the BIGGEST.  BEST is what gets rewarded in life, not BIGGEST (see fate of the dinosaurs), unless we are competing for "BIGGEST LOSER"!

[Seraphs]

Lake, I agree with you as previously noted.  Our obsession with "size" of any kind shows our insecurity about "quality".  We should focus on being the BEST, not the BIGGEST.  BEST is what gets rewarded in life, not BIGGEST (see fate of the dinosaurs), unless we are competing for "BIGGEST LOSER"!

It's not that we are obsessed with size.  One thing I've heard over and over on this forum is, "Jacksonville has no identity."  If there is one thing that identifies this city is the fact that it is big.  Everywhere I go the one thing that people talk about when I tell them I'm from Jax is that it is a big city.  The size of the city is a quirk and quirkiness works because people remember it.

People aren't idiots they know we aren't Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, or whatever, nor are we trying to be.  During the superbowl so many people didn't have a clue where in Florida Jax was located, but the commentators repeatedly referred to Jax as an enormously big city.  In order for a city to be recognized it must first be remembered.  Personally, I don't think we have any insecurities with the quality of this city, however, there is always room for improvement.

[thelakelander]

During the Super Bowl, this "big" was portrayed as a negative.  It was not "big" as in population, but "big" as in insanely spread out.  We were painted as a sprawling suburb with limited walkable areas and lacking in cosmopolitan amenities that "a city our size" should already have.  Overall, people enjoyed our southern hospitality but most thought we were out of our leagues hosting that event compared with other cities that had hosted it in the past.  We may lack an identity, but being identified as an unsustainable sunbelt sprawler is not a good thing.

[Ocklawaha]

Why stop at 3rd largest?  Just go ahead and say we're the largest city outside of Alaska, making us the largest city on the East Coast.  With statistics we can always pick a choose certain numbers that may make us look superior on paper although street level reveals a completely different viewpoint.

If we were truly the third largest place on the east coast, we would already have rail and more buildings than parking lots downtown regardless of poor or good city leadership.  We would also be considered to be more of an international city as opposed to a regional one.

I'm not saying people should hold back facts, but we should be well aware of what all of these numbers mean and how to properly put them in relation to other places when attempting to compare with other places.  Municipal numbers simply aren't apples to apples in most cases because a region's urban development and true population is not dictated by imaginary municipal limits.  The municipal numbers are what the are, but they just don't reflect the true size of a place (Jax, Daytona, Orange Park or any where else).

Exactly Lake! The numbers are what they are. I'm just sick to death of every time our city is mentioned it comes with a disclaimer. Oklahoma City doesn't apologise for it's similar size (in both areas of the count, miles or people!). One the the favorite things in my Okie Roots (no I wasn't born there) is the Oklahoma practice of taking jabs at Dallas, Houston etc... "It's true, Dallas and Houston are bigger then OKC ( either one actually has more people then the whole damn state of OK) but geographically speaking, OKLAHOMA IS ALWAYS ON TOP OF TEXAS!" Call it what you want but to me it feels like PRIDE and a helping of pure spunk. "Did you know Lake Texoma on the Red River is the second largest lake in Oklahoma, but it is the LARGEST LAKE IN TEXAS!" "Never badmouth an Okie with your mouth or gas tank full!" and last but certainly not least, in a beautiful land where more languages are spoken then anywhere in the rest of the world, comes this little gem, "Welcome to the Cheyenne Nation - Custer Had It Comming!"

Yeah, some of that is simple silliness, but the point is,Oklahoma and it's cities can't be ignored because they WILL get in your face about it.

So I contend that our municipal limits are not imaginary. Maybe a bit whacked but I understand at the time of Consolidation, our mayor suggested buying Texas as a new City Park. Even though Texas is huge and has several massive urban area's did you know that about 68% of it is greasewood, rocks, cactus and rattlesnakes. From the hill country roughly a line from Dallas to San Antonio, west, looks more like something out of a bad, old Clint Eastwood Italian Western. But however you cut it, they don't back down from their legal bragging rights, and neither should we.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

For the record, I don't know what type of Chamber of Commerce lines Oklahoma City sprouts, but I've always viewed it as second tier player too, given the area's population.

Last but not least, understanding statistics and how they relate to urban development is not an apology or disclaimer.  What's being painted as a disclaimer is the same argument we've been using to prove to naysayers that we already have the density to support rail options.

In any event, we can agree to disagree on this one.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm still not certain you get my drift on this. I think bragging rights, whatever they are, help to brand and identify a locality. Be it "The Strawberry Capital of the World," Plant City. "Home of the Redneck Games," Athens, TX.. "Home of the Boggy Creek Monster," Fouke, AR.. "Anadarko, Oklahoma, home of the worlds deepest gas well, The Bertha Rogers 31,441 feet."

It's those little and unique things that make us who we really are, I just wish JACKSONVILLE, could quit backing up and stand on these achievements. What has happened to us? About the time most of you boys were born we had full page ad's in newspapers all over the USA. They came complete with cartoon figures, data sheets and contact numbers, here's just a couple of examples that REALLY PISSED some folks off in distant evil towns.

NY TIMES, "Thousands of New Yorkers have left town for the big city... JACKSONVILLE!"

ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, "Ask any Atlantan the way to the port... JACKSONVILLE!"

Would somebody find our missing balls? Let's pull out all of the stops again and have some fun!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I get your drift.  I just don't view it as bragging rights.  We already have an identity as a big sprawling suburb.  When it comes to urbanism, I see it as more of a negative.  In the 1980s, this may have been okay but the country is changing to one that values sustainability and quality of life over quantity.   If anything around here really needs an identity boost, I'd say its our urban core.  Any ideas on what we can rally it around to separate it's identity from the sprawling and rural areas of the city?

[Ocklawaha]

As a matter of fact, yes... A wild hair idea to meet the bad reputation of downtown being a dead spot head-on. Turn the silence into a quality.
Using photos or video of various international cities, both USA and overseas, crowed, often unfriendly, and always rushed, contrast it with an image from our old Jax Beer promos.

The sleeping giant

Timeless City

The City of friendship

Images of downtown, clubs, restaurants, hotels, riverwalks, bridges, sailing, monorail, fireworks, stadiums, but always FRIENDS together. The message is: the only big city where you'll have time to stop and smell the flowers.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Good one. That could work for retirees.  How about the Creative Class or the ones that like hustle and bustle of a city (DT and its urban neighborhoods).