No Cars For JTA Employees Until Mass Transit Works.

[Doctor_K]

A "Riverside Extension" would be near Blue Cross/Fidelity, to the east of I-95.  So what trips will this generate?  Fidelity and Blue Cross employees going downtown to lunch and back?  That's hardly a justification for expansion.

Let's low-ball and assume that 500 of those BCBS, Fidelity, Everbank, and whatever other employees in that are do indeed use the Skyway to hit downtown for lunch.  Or even to Hemming Plaza for a hot dog from a street vendor.  Or to the Southbank to RCBC.

That's 500 additional round-trips a day.  Per-day, per-week, per-year, that 125,000 additional trips/riders.  Further raising the abysmal ridership rate to something less abysmal.

Therefore, extension to places people are = increased ridership.

[buckethead]

Not to mention: Downtown-> Brooklyn-> Riverside-> Avondale-> Ortega etc.... Same logic applies in all directions.

This is how the expansion will happen. In stages, but hopefully in much qucker stages than history suggests.

[braeburn]

Yeah that's what I was thinking - it not only gets you to the surrounding urban neighborhoods outside of downtown, but it also can bring people into downtown as well.

I'd wager there are more people who live in Riverside that do not or prefer not to operate vehicles than say, for example, people in Middleburg/Orange Park or some other far away suburb. The ridership could only increase, not decrease with such an extension.

Additionally, I have to walk 3 blocks from my condo to get to the closest Skyway Station, which is closer than a lot of the other residential towers in downtown. The proposed Forest St. extension is pretty close to RAM, the Cummer, 5 points, Riverside Square, Memorial Park, etc...

This aversion to being on ones feet for more than 3 minutes bewilders me 

[buckethead]

I agree!

The skyway needs to go futher than the mass-transit-minded are willing to walk.

I stated earlier that during a lease at the Strand, I would opt to walk over the main st bridge to go to the landing for a cheap lunch with my wife and three daughters. It was easier to walk than ride.

To the library however, we would take the monorail. Had it gone close to the cummer art gallery, we would most certainly taken that trip as well.

One of the most important aspects, which has been mentioned by others, is stations going to destinations, as well as other transit links.

JMS, San Marco Sq, Avondale Shopping Ctr, Main and Pearl, and even to the Courthouse at Beach Blvd. (Hideous, I know, but a practical destination.)

If such expansion proves to sustain itself, or even get close to doing so, further expansion could be feasable.

[braeburn]

I am not sure that the Skyway would ever go "through" Riverside and into Avondale. It's not exactly "historic" in nature and would look kind of strange amidst all the architecture and whatnot..

[Ocklawaha]

The 5-Points area, Stadium and Shand's via the parks, are on the original plans, the fact is we never finished it to plan. To say it is a completed "system," is a stretch, unless you consider complete enough to operate a few back and forth cars as THE SYSTEM. But however it goes, it remains incomplete. It also appears that JTA has never gone back to the federal well. Now the FTA is giving away priority funds to systems already in place, for improvements or expansions.

OCKLAWAHA

[buckethead]

I am not sure that the Skyway would ever go "through" Riverside and into Avondale. It's not exactly "historic" in nature and would look kind of strange amidst all the architecture and whatnot..

Personally, I think it would work nicely. I don't know that it will happen, but I'm certain it would gain ridership.

[gmpalmer]

but 500,000 riders a year is still $14 per rider on a 7 million dollar budget.
Does that make sense?

[buckethead]

A sobering thought.

[Doctor_K]

Right now, that's what it is. Extend the thing to go somewhere and ridership jumps, thus decreasing the cost-per-rider-mile of it.  A million riders is $7 per rider, etc.  

And, transit doesn't turn a profit.  Neither do roads.  That argument has been made over and over.

But the higher the ridership, the higher the percentage of income from fares that can be used to offset the expense, the better.

[Ocklawaha]

Here's another freebie, a nice shot of the new MOSCOW MONORAIL...and no this isn't Moscow,Texas! For you sharp eyed transit nutz out there, note the STREETCAR at the curb below the monorail... Can you say INTERMODAL Jacksonville?

I am not sure that the Skyway would ever go "through" Riverside and into Avondale. It's not exactly "historic" in nature and would look kind of strange amidst all the architecture and whatnot..

Personally, I think it would work nicely. I don't know that it will happen, but I'm certain it would gain ridership.

I could see it stopping at the Annie Lytle school or elsewhere along I95, where it's just a short walk or streetcar ride to 5-Points, Riverside and Avondale.

In the very early 1970's era proposals for the, "Jacksonville Automated People Mover Demonstration Project," included some talk of ending it at Saint Vincents. St. Vincents, Baptist and Shand's, were all aggressively pro "people mover".

RAP mobilized the troops for a war, and the end was redrawn at Blue Cross. Frankly, I'm not sure you could find a contractor brave enough to try and build a MONORAIL through Riverside or Avondale, or Ortega, or Fairfax. Even though it would be good transit, it would be a horrible distruction of some of our only rare and untouched historic fabric. Sort of like a pay toilet in a diarrhea ward. I would stop it at 95, and under no condition support it going past (south of) 5-points. San Marco is different as we have the FEC right of way we could use to get close enough.
Springfield to Shand's through the edge of the park, would also be a historical iffy project. Fairfield, which is the stadium area, would be great for the Skyway as most of the history was blown to bits and the only large neighborhood that survived the great fire of 1901, fell to Jacksonville's bulldozier mentality. However taking it north of the Arlington Expressway would destroy a beautiful and historic A. P. Randolph street. The last remains of several early Jacksonville black business area's. It still has that "San Marco-5 Points-Avondale-etc" fabric.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

PS4 does have that possibility.....but it takes vision and a plan! Current Administration seems to be lacking both along with having amateurs running the show! Instead of the shotgun approach maybe they should be more selective and definitive? Establish priorities and organize to achieve them! I believe that is business 101 but I am just a dumb taxpayer......what do I know?

[stjr]

A "Riverside Extension" would be near Blue Cross/Fidelity, to the east of I-95.  So what trips will this generate?  Fidelity and Blue Cross employees going downtown to lunch and back?  That's hardly a justification for expansion.

That's 500 additional round-trips a day.  Per-day, per-week, per-year, that 125,000 additional trips/riders.  Further raising the abysmal ridership rate to something less abysmal.

Therefore, extension to places people are = increased ridership.

Increased riders for the $ky-high-way isn't saying much.  It needs to be ENOUGH of an increase to justify the investment.  500 people more a day doesn't cut it.  It needs thousands more.

And, let's be clear, the only expansion of the $ky-high-way realistically discussed here has been to the east of I-95.  That's not going to pull in those living in the existing residential areas of Riverside/Avondale/Ortega to the west of I-95.

Running the $ky-high-way through 5 Points is of questionable feasibility to me but, that aside, it would sure destroy the current ambiance of the area.  I would expect a big backlash against it going there.  A street car system throughout Riverside, etc. is a much better solution as it, IMHO, always is when stacked against the $ky-high-way.

And, as I have pointed out previously, the $ky-high-way has failed spectacularly to spur development around its stops.  In many cases, it may have done just the opposite.  So claims about future prospects for development supporting it ring hollow.

[thelakelander]

Just wondering, what number increase would justify the investment?  We all know no form of transit really breaks even or makes a profit directly.  What should the annual loss be on the skyway, in your opinion, to make it worth keeping?

[stjr]

Just wondering, what number increase would justify the investment?  We all know no form of transit really breaks even or makes a profit directly.  What should the annual loss be on the skyway, in your opinion, to make it worth keeping?

Lake, I think we could say with some level of confidence there is a need for mass transit and the main question is, what is the most effective mode to deliver it.  The "market" for alternatives should set the standard for costs versus ridership.

What I mean is that we should compare all available alternative modes, models, methods, configurations, technologies, etc. for transiting people and goods in a given area and FAIRLY (not politically) evaluate them on the basis of people served, convenience, accessibility, investment, capacity, feasibility, operating and maintenance costs, service lives, community impacts, etc. and make value-based decisions.

My argument against the $ky-high-way is that, based on any reasonable set of criteria, it would come in last, or close to last place, in total value to the community.  The only "asset" it has is that it already exists.  I believe its shortfalls are so great versus other transit modes, that this still leaves it far short of justifying continued and/or additional investment in it.