JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[Ocklawaha]

I will agree that we get some streetcar built within five years....but highly doubt we'll see a skyway extension anytime soon.

Need proof....the $9.3 million stimulus grant that JTA just got originally had $100,000 listed for enhancements at the Skyway Central Station....when a City Council member objected, JTA changed the application to put the $100,000 to something else!

It is true that JTA has been worse then the Cowardly Lion of legendary fame about exerting it's idea's and expertise, but this shouldn't effect a common sense plan for the Skyway. Allowing non transportation people to direct our planning from the sidelines is how we got into this irresponsible mess to begin with. Way past time for this anemic agency to grow a pair...

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Without reading this entire thread, it does seem like the skyway is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.  As it is, it is not very effective. There are times as it is that is it used closer to capacity...by out of towners during the right conventions. The issue seems to be deciding how best to get daily communers using it more and that involves extending it.

So, the final question seems to be do you admitt defeat and tear it down or extend it?  Which is less expensive in the long run? What is the cost of whatever public transit replaces it combined with the cost to demo and that compared to the cost of extending it to make it work, which is better for the city and the tax payers?  Letting it continue as is seems somewhat self defeating.

They didnt finish it...It has 8 stations...Only 2 actually go somewhere nice. 2 out of 8. So six of them need developments near them. One councilmen GOB....will fade away in time and a younger wiser councilmen will eventually fill the void. I used the Skyway often, especially when going to MocaJax or the Library. I dont want it all the way to Post & Stockton....but Post & Margeret were perfert for where I used to live.

Its quite comical to read someone wanting more bus shelters and less Skyway stations when they in fact never even use JTA?? 3 buses went through Riverside EVERYDAY!! the W4, W7 & W12 none ruined the HISTORY of gentrified Riverside....but now you think a Skyway train will? And those buses were/are loud.

Yep, not one segment was ever finished. Starting in 1960's, plans for a monorail system as a downtown distributor first became serious. The Federal Government announced plans for new demonstration programs for a new technology called APM, or Automated People Mover, or DPM, Downtown People Mover, in the 1970's. 1978, Jacksonville completes a preliminary needs assessment and finds that we would benefit from a system of APM anchored to the City's buildings via a system of matching Skywalk's. The initial route should extend from the Courthouse into Riverside. 1980's, Jacksonville is one of 3 Cities to be awarded funding to complete a demonstration project, a fully funded study came back recommending a route from the Courthouse to Riverside, A line up Hogan, and the Springfield Parks, to Shand's, and finally a line over the river serving Baptist Hospital, and all points along the Mary Street. 1986, a final starter line was laid out from the Courthouse to the Landing and hence North to FCCJ, this would be about the 3Rd study to recommend this same route. Construction funding is delivered and JTA builds the starter system from a sometimes used Convention Center across a moonscape to Jefferson Street and Central Station. (note: how it missed the Courthouse AND Landing which had appeared on EVERY single study done).  From Central Station the line was extended to Hemming Plaza and The Rosa Parks Transit Center, but it failed by one VERY BUSY road to make it into FCCJ which was supposed to be the traffic anchor. The Courthouse and City Hall were left high and dry as the Skyway turned away from the recommendations and plans to miss the Landing, Modis, BOA, Courthouse, C of C, State Office Building, City Hall, Police Station, Jail, or the heartbeat of the core.

The conversion to monorail was intelligent and probably the first thing JTA did right on this project. Monorail can actually move at speeds of up to 55 MPH (yes ours!), trains can be expanded, equipment is available off the shelf.

With that conversion, the system crossed the river on the New Acosta Bridge, turning East at the south end of the bridge and completely missing Baptist, Nemour's, Aetna, 2 major garages, Medical Arts building, and Ronald McDonald House. Not only were they not included in the system, but the FEC RY, Acosta Ramps, San Marco and Prudential Drive, conspired to create a "Great Wall" making access very uncomfortable.

In order to try to pull a rabbit out of the hat in a last desperate try, the Authority tried to duplicate The Rosa Parks Transfer Center on the South Bank, in an alley, behind a block of business buildings, and under a FREEway!
One of the country's largest parking garages was built, but there is neither Skyway or good roadway access. The recommended push into San Marco never happened...

Lo and Behold, NOBODY RODE IT!  Well... DUH!  They didn't even build it to their own planners recommendations. Needless to say the shops, food kiosk's, sidewalk vendors, and JTA Child Care Centers, NEVER HAPPENED! Always strapped for cash, with egg all over their faces, JTA quietly removed the project from the top drawer. The City Council disowned it, rather then fix it. Shell shock set in and everyone wants to be the one to distance themselves from the "wonderfully flawed Skyway..."  Had JTA been ordered to follow it's own plans and finish at least 2 complete phases of it (rather then the trumped up "shorty phases" we put on paper to appease the peasantry), today we might be wondering if the Gateway Mall Line, should cross the Trout River and link to the Commuter Rail at Dunn Avenue?

Might have been can be fixed, it's the mass transit equivalent of "delay of game." Anyone want to see our system in full operational glory? Simply goggle MOSCOW MONORAIL, and you'll see a twin system FINISHED ACCORDING TO PLAN and guess what? IT WORKS!!

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Moscow04.html

http://www.youtube.com/v/--yXJJWI-Ec&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"%20type=

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock.............I understand and agree with your point of view to a degree! Skyway needs to be either extended or shut down, one or the other, because for $7 Million a year to operate as is............its ridiculous! Public is not getting their monies worth and JTA looks like the idiots they are.............either squat or get off the pot! But do something viable and cost effective, I am tired of funding crappy projects that go no where and do nothing to enhance my life!

[thelakelander]

Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

[CS Foltz]

lake........that does make sense, but would require both the City and JTA having knowledge of what to do and how to do it in a cost effective manner! Somehow I don't think that option is even being explored!

[buckethead]

Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

DING!

This Lake guy makes sense.

[fsujax]

I know the JTA is now ending some of the routes on the Southbank at the Kings Ave Skyway station, so it looks like JTA is doing what Lake mentioned earlier. Now they just need to do more of that and the City needs to stop building parking garages in Downtown.

[Captain Zissou]

I have now ridden the skyway twice in a week (shocking right) and now I support it more than ever.  It really is a beautiful system.  I got on at the riverplace station both times and rode it to central station.  The first time was for art walk and the car was packed!  Last night I was meeting someone for dinner at the Landing and there were about 6 people in the car (not sure if that's the proper term).  Last night I had to wait about 4-5 minutes as the train went to kings ave and came back.  It's a really nice smooth ride and quite scenic. 

The skyway could be a huge asset if we just use it to its full potential.

[cline]

The skyway could be a huge asset if we just use it to its full potential.

Agreed.  That's what many on this board have been arguing.  Tearing the system down is really not the solution.  If it were extended and better integrated into the existing transit system it could be transformed from a joke into something viable. As it stands it is the equivalent of only building half a bridge and then wondering why people don't use it.

[Captain Zissou]

^ I agree.  I think two no frills stations added to the current system would be enough to help it tip.  Down riverside and east to newnan street should be considered.  Once we have a real transit center anchoring the northwest end and a real convenion center anchoring the eastern end, ridership will be enormous.
If we could integrate the station at Newnan and Bay into the newly built convention center, that would be a win win.  That would put 7 Hotels within a block of a skyway station and give convention attendees easy access to anywhere in downtown from the center.

[stjr]

Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.  And, please don't confuse the usefulness of the $ky-high-way for a small and select number of die hard users or fans with acceptance by the masses.  Jax is a long way (decades? if ever?) from having an environment where this plan would be the one preferred by large and sufficient numbers of the riding public.   But, no harm in fantasizing.

Again, while Ock chooses to gloss over it, the $ky-high-way was expanded previously and it has failed multiple times by over 90% to 95% to meet projections for the system AS IS NOW.  Promises of an appropriate number of riders (versus alternative transit systems)  following still another expansion is akin to Lucy moving the ball every time Charlie Brown tries to kick it or pulling the carrot back every time someone attempts to grab it.  All the arguments advanced on these boards in favor of the expansion of the $ky-high-way exactly mirror previous arguments made for construction of its original and expanded segments.  Nothing new there.  I don't see how anyone can find these promises of a pot of gold at the end of the $ky-high-way rainbow credible.

Lastly, regardless of one's feelings for the $ky-high-way, there is so much more and better low hanging mass transit "fruit" to pick, that the $ky-high-way should be way down the list for any future investment.  IMHO, I would pursue a streetcar or commuter system that has a realistic chance to prove to the jaded citizenry at large here the true potential of a rail system, not pour money into an existing system that has repeatedly demonstrated its potential to greatly disappoint again and again.

[cline]

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.  And, please don't confuse the usefulness of the $ky-high-way for a small and select number of die hard users or fans with acceptance by the masses.  Jax is a long way (decades? if ever?) from having an environment where this plan would be the one preferred by large and sufficient numbers of the riding public.   But, no harm in fantasizing.

Some people will take the "path of least resistance" and continue to use the automobile.  It is tough for any transit system to compete with the speed of a personal vehicle.  But really, the point is to offer mobility choices.  Something that the Region is not truly providing right now.  Why coundn't the Skyway be one of these mobility options?  Because you personally don't like it?  

You state that Jax is decades away from an environment where this plan would be preferred.  Do you have any proof for that?  I think there is a large contingent of citizens who would actually choose to use transit if given the option- and these are people that own vehicles.  At the LRTP public meetings I attended most people wanted to talk about transit options.  Many people even like the idea of extending the Skyway, so I would argue that there are people in the area that would support it.  

[Captain Zissou]

If more people had the option to take the skyway from home to work, I think they would.  As it stands, the system goes from where very few people live to where a few people work.  As destinations are developed around the system and as the system expands to reach destinations, ridership will improve.  Right now the system doesn't serve any market other than the occasional south or northbank hotel visitor or me when I want chicago pizza.

[stjr]

...the point is to offer mobility choices.  Something that the Region is not truly providing right now.  Why coundn't the Skyway be one of these mobility options?  Because you personally don't like it? 

You state that Jax is decades away from an environment where this plan would be preferred.  Do you have any proof for that?  .... At the LRTP public meetings I attended most people wanted to talk about transit options.  Many people even like the idea of extending the Skyway, so I would argue that there are people in the area that would support it. 

Cline, if there was real demand by the public currently for mass transit, then the bus and $ky-high-way systems would not be allowed, even in their current configurations, to be run as the third rate systems that they are.  The public wouldn't stand for it.  My observation is JTA "gets by" because, at present, not enough people really do care.

I agree, the future looks much brighter for the demand for mass transit.  It still needs to be done right to exploit this "interest" you refer to.  We have seen too many examples of the public clamoring for something and then not sustaining its support as advertised (see the Jaguars) so we should be wary as to what it will actually take to make a success out of any given project.

I fully support mass transit options/choices, as I have posted repeatedly. I do think that we can't implement or support all the options available as we have limited financial resources, political capital, and chances to get things right.  Fail again and that "interest" you referred to will fade back away.

If one were to go through the exercise of ranking mass transit options based on economic efficiencies, public acceptance, ease of use, impact on neighborhoods, proven successes, numbers served, etc., I think that options such as streetcars, buses, commuter rail, and walk- and bike-ways would all place far, far above the $ky-high-way.  On this basis, I think the $ky-high-way has no seat at the table anytime soon, and, with the successes of the other options, maybe never.

As it stands, the system goes from where very few people live to where a few people work.

Captain, even with the proposed extensions by Ock, it won't go to where people currently live (the stadium, Brooklyn, most of the distance to Shands, down Kings Road in San Marco).  And, I think Ock would agree, those are the outer limits of the system, even for its most ardent supporters.  So, how do you think expanding it will address your point?

I see $ky-high-way ridership improving only if people wish to move about the downtown area on it.  This would be those visitors you mentioned, a few downtown workers on their lunch hour, and a smattering of downtown residents.  Just like now.  But, these same people could generally be far better served by the more flexible, affordable, and street friendly streetcars and buses, or even just plain walking, for most trips.  So why invest more in the $ky-high-way?  One trip that the $ky-high-way makes currently that should demonstrate its potential is the river crossing yet even this has failed to produce much interest.  If that "gold standard" trip isn't attractive to users, what other trip could it make that would be more compelling?

[Ocklawaha]

Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.  And, please don't confuse the usefulness of the $ky-high-way for a small and select number of die hard users or fans with acceptance by the masses.  Jax is a long way (decades? if ever?) from having an environment where this plan would be the one preferred by large and sufficient numbers of the riding public.   But, no harm in fantasizing.

Nobody is talking about adding 10, 20, or 30 minute transfers. How long since you used mass transit STJR? Let's shoot for 45 seconds. If across the platform transfers would kill a transit system, then NYC would have been walking decades ago. The "Small and select Group" is neither, it is simply a matter of not having service at the locations or times needed by the public. Jacksonville is a long way from NOTHING, today is the future, and it looks to me like the city is waking to the idea of transit.

Again, while Ock chooses to gloss over it, the $ky-high-way was expanded previously and it has failed multiple times by over 90% to 95% to meet projections for the system AS IS NOW.  Promises of an appropriate number of riders (versus alternative transit systems)  following still another expansion is akin to Lucy moving the ball every time Charlie Brown tries to kick it or pulling the carrot back every time someone attempts to grab it.  All the arguments advanced on these boards in favor of the expansion of the $ky-high-way exactly mirror previous arguments made for construction of its original and expanded segments.  Nothing new there.  I don't see how anyone can find these promises of a pot of gold at the end of the $ky-high-way rainbow credible.

No gloss needed from me, hell the Skyway operations center has a dart board in the break room with my photo on it! The system was "expanded" by building tiny fractional add-on's to routes that were planned as phases, and to this day, NOT ONE has ever been built out. I agree with what was said, the Skyway is like 1/2 of a bridge, incomplete. There is no pot of gold at the end of the Skyway rainbow, but if you expect it from streetcars or bottle rockets you are in for a big disappointment. Mass transit does NOT make money, and recovers very little of it's operating cost from the fare box. Anyone who promises who predicts profit from our system in ANY form is either deluded or insane. Nothing new? Really? Consider the original plan was to build a "flying train" using highway technology, and producing a profit, plus seeing some 50,000 riders, all cut from whole cloth.  The "nothing new," of today is an attempt at working a $200 Million  dollar albatross into a $300 Million dollar eagle.

Lastly, regardless of one's feelings for the $ky-high-way, there is so much more and better low hanging mass transit "fruit" to pick, that the $ky-high-way should be way down the list for any future investment.  IMHO, I would pursue a streetcar or commuter system that has a realistic chance to prove to the jaded citizenry at large here the true potential of a rail system, not pour money into an existing system that has repeatedly demonstrated its potential to greatly disappoint again and again.

As the Captain said, there is nothing disappointing about the Skyway system, rather it is the planning and management of it.  Rather then bump the Skyway "way down on the list," let's show a little leadership and build all four: BRT, SKYWAY, COMMUTER RAIL and STREETCAR.


OCKLAWAHA