JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[stjr]

Ock, thanks for your valiant efforts to portray the $ky-high-way as the answer to world peace.  

But, it's not what it cost, it's what it cost vs. benefits and alternatives.  And, the $ky-high-way has proven it doesn't measure up on either count and most of us are convinced it never will.  I encourage new MJ readers to review our many threads on this subject to find my rebuttals to Ock's answers.  No time to rehash again here.

Ock, your original instincts from decades ago were the right ones.  "Follow your instincts - may the Force be with you!  Don't go over to the Dark Side."  

[Ocklawaha]

"They had been blowing up historic buildings for years, but when they trashed the Skyway it marked a seed change in Jacksonville's future..."

My original instincts were, "IT SHOULDN'T BE BUILT!" and I'd say I'd still say that today if we were starting from zero, but we're not.  Nobody want's to see true rail in this city as much as the guy that originally proposed it, but knowing the industry and the federal agency's we'll get far more capital out of some small improvements and extensions then we will with a wrecking ball. In fact, if we tore it down tomorrow, we would literally seal in stone the fact that funding for our 2030 plan would come down with it.  We'd all be dead before Uncle Sam wrote another check in Jacksonville, and our national failure, and lack of resolve to "fix it" has already given us a black eye. "Oh here's that funding request from Jacksonville," as they laugh trying to prevent the coffee from staining their shirts. Trust me, little things like allowing the Jaguars to have their head's on everybody's chopping block all season long doesn't help either, we've become something of a national joke. Running with our tail between our legs is not the way to instill confidence in the Federal Transit Administration. We must be able to walk in the room straight faced and sober and demonstrate a modicum of optimism that the latest plan is the solution.

The Federal Government that funds these things couldn't care less about our toils as long as it looks justifiable on paper. Something that you stjr, and many others don't know is that we are not sleeping at MJ, and in fact take this project quite seriously. As such we have been meeting and speaking directly with a who's who of our government and transportation officials, remember we are not simply reporting about our city but are activists. One of the things that has become glaringly clear is at the Federal Level of our State Representation, we could have nearly any Skyway improvement if we'd just ask for it! We have all heard comments like, "That monorail thing, why don't they finish it?", "That monorail could be a model for the country," and "Please get those people to ask me for something, I'd like to do it, but they won't request it..." We'll be reporting on some of these conversations soon.

Due to the knee jerk relations the city has had with the Skyway, I'd suggest that the "stadium Extension" be scaled back to somewhere in the East Bay-Newnan-Berkman area. This would place it well for whatever comes of the old Court House site, as well as anything done with the Skipyard's site.

Otherwise, moving down to:

San Marco at Atlantic
Brooklyn at Riverside and Forest (though Annie Lytle would make more sense)
Springfield at Health Department and on to the VA clinic when it is built (perhaps funded with it)

On the Southbank

Something needs to be done about the current San Marco Station's near abandonment of Atena and Baptist
A curving concourse walk with beautiful views of downtown, could be created from both places into the station, or a new Skyway shuttle line, moving back and forth all day, could connect them as well as Wolfsons, Nemours, etc...

The biggest thing wrong with the Skyway, is having an operator, rather then a warden.


OCKLAWAHA

[Doctor_K]

Ock--

Wouldn't 'scaling it back from the stadium' fly counter to the paradigm of "give the skyway a destination"?  Unless something spectacular happens with the old courthouse, Berkman might not really be a destination when compared with Met Park and the Stadium.  We'd be extending it to nowhere.

[Coolyfett]

people will be surprised what actually gets "talked into reality" on this site...I know this site talks about millions of things that make Jax or some parts of Jax better. Its very interesting that sum citizens there in Jax are against certain options.

[Coolyfett]

Ill be glad when the population count gets up to 4 mil in Jax.

I will not. This city is still on a "big town" mentality. Let's not wish for things we can't yet handle. 

Oh 4 Million will happen...not sure if ill be around to see it, but hey more babys are born than folks die so.....

[Traveller]

If Jacksonville ever gets to 4 million people, that means the state of Florida probably has close to 50 million.  We'd better get some cheap, reliable desalinization technology by then or we'll all be walking around in Fremen stillsuits.

[thelakelander]

Due to the knee jerk relations the city has had with the Skyway, I'd suggest that the "stadium Extension" be scaled back to somewhere in the East Bay-Newnan-Berkman area. This would place it well for whatever comes of the old Court House site, as well as anything done with the Skipyard's site.

If a decision were made to extend the skyway down Bay instead of a streetcar, you have to get it to the stadium/metropolitan park area.  That area may be only packed for special events but that annual ridership would be needed to justify the costs.  Instead of cutting back, the way to save on it would be to drop it down to grade (on the northside) just east of Liberty.  There's only two intersections before A. Philip Randolph and both could be closed without really impacting existing establishments in the area.  Out of a mile long extension, half of it would be at grade, which would dramatically cut the costs down.

Otherwise, moving down to:

San Marco at Atlantic

A good chunk of this could be dropped to grade level also after crossing the FEC.  Nevertheless, this is really the cheapest solution to getting over the FEC between DT and San Marco Square.

Brooklyn at Riverside and Forest (though Annie Lytle would make more sense)

I don't think it would hurt to scrap this entire route.  A streetcar connecting DT to Riverside could serve the same area and would be more well recieved by the community and the historic district.  Instead of building two transit systems to compete for riders in Brooklyn, go with the streetcar and use the money saved to extend mass transit into a nearby neighborhood like Springfield or Durkeeville.

Springfield at Health Department and on to the VA clinic when it is built (perhaps funded with it)

I know you guys hate it but the North BRT corridor will serve the new VA clinic with a straight shot from the JTC down Broad/Jefferson.  I think you'll have trouble proposing to run the skyway through the historic parks lining Hogans Creek.

On the Southbank

Something needs to be done about the current San Marco Station's near abandonment of Atena and Baptist
A curving concourse walk with beautiful views of downtown, could be created from both places into the station, or a new Skyway shuttle line, moving back and forth all day, could connect them as well as Wolfsons, Nemours, etc...

I agree. Some sort of pedestrian overpass over the Acosta and FEC tracks would really help tie Kings Avenue Station in with Baptist and the Acosta Building.  Tie it in with a San Marco "loop shuttle" and that could also serve as a way for people to get over FEC freight traffic.  However, even a pedestrian overpass will cost you a couple of million.

The biggest thing wrong with the Skyway, is having an operator, rather then a warden.

Yes, ridership would increase if it were treated as an important part of the local mass transit network instead of a red headed stepchild.




[/quote]

[Coolyfett]

              most of us are convinced it never will.  I encourage new MJ readers to review our many threads on this subject to find my rebuttals to Ock's answers./b]

most of us??? Everytime You post, you try to speak for everyone. ALSO, every poll that you have made on here never had CLEAR choices or really made any sense. You encourage new members to follow you??? Most people on here are adults and can choose for themselves. New member don't need you to tell them how to think. What is that about? You trying to come off as some sort of leader on this forum....even Ock and Lake don't try to do that. Just present information and leave it at that. You make your opinion know, then you go overboard with the whole "JOIN ME" campaign. Cmon now.

[JaxNative68]

Ock--

Wouldn't 'scaling it back from the stadium' fly counter to the paradigm of "give the skyway a destination"?  Unless something spectacular happens with the old courthouse, Berkman might not really be a destination when compared with Met Park and the Stadium.  We'd be extending it to nowhere.

that is why the convention center should be located on the shipyards site.  Along with the stadium and Met Park, it would give a strong terminus for the skyway extension.  Of course a hotel would be needed with the convention center.

[thelakelander]

As long as its on Bay, you'll get the same ridership from a convention center.  However, if you're going to expand the skyway down Bay, you have to get it to at least Philip Randolph.

[Coolyfett]

Ill be glad when the population count gets up to 4 mil in Jax.

I will not. This city is still on a "big town" mentality. Let's not wish for things we can't yet handle.  

What city in America is ready for growth??? The only thing that would make me not support rail growth would be flying cars...many people still do not know how to drive on regular roads.

[tufsu1]

As long as its on Bay, you'll get the same ridership from a convention center.  However, if you're going to expand the skyway down Bay, you have to get it to at least Philip Randolph.

I just visited San Antonio, which has a huge convention center...there is no real transit system there and most people flying in either get a $30 taxi or $18 shuttle to downtown from the airport.

Once downtown they frequent the Riverwalk, which connects directly to the Convention Center and its associated hotls...most stroll the riverwalk, but they also take the boat tours/taxis....I noted that there were several free PCT trolley routes running through downtown and they are mostly empty.

bottom line...don't count on convention center folks to take transit...many of them are suburbanites that aren't accustomes to using transit and often they come for meetings that include transportation....now local trade shows (like the auto and boat shows) are a bit differnt.

[stjr]

               most of us are convinced it never will.  I encourage new MJ readers to review our many threads on this subject to find my rebuttals to Ock's answers./b]

most of us??? Everytime You post, you try to speak for everyone. ALSO, every poll that you have made on here never had CLEAR choices or really made any sense. You encourage new members to follow you??? Most people on here are adults and can choose for themselves. New member don't need you to tell them how to think. What is that about? You trying to come off as some sort of leader on this forum....even Ock and Lake don't try to do that. Just present information and leave it at that. You make your opinion know, then you go overboard with the whole "JOIN ME" campaign. Cmon now.

Not even worth a response, Coolyfett.  You have really lost it.

[Coolyfett]

yet you responded....predictable

[Ocklawaha]

IN THE MASS TRANSIT INDUSTRY, ONE LEGEND STANDS HEAD AND SHOULDERS ABOVE THE OTHERS... NOW FOR YOUR ENLIGHTENMENT MJ PRESENTS THE MYTHICAL SUPERFELINE

http://www.youtube.com/v/n1bUgfB96co&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca

As long as its on Bay, you'll get the same ridership from a convention center.  However, if you're going to expand the skyway down Bay, you have to get it to at least Philip Randolph.

I think everyone on here knows my position on the Skyway as-is. Certainly I support it going into the stadium area, in fact still feel a combination garage/BRT/Skyway/Streetcar facility located somewhere at the foot of the bridges would be a killer combination.

EASTSIDE
But since so many Skyway NIMBY or NIOBY (other back yards) have raised against the Skyway, I'm thinking phases. Central station to BOA/MODIS to Newnan (streetcar connection) to East Bay, entertainment district/police/future Convention Center? to Shipyards/future Convention Center to (future extension) would be a fairly easy way to bust through the core without the stretch to tne goal line. 1/2 mile would probably easier to get past city hall then a whole mile, when every 5Th person wants to toss out the "Game day only riders" argument. God forbid that they would understand intermodal mix, FREEway ramps, parking, and CHOICE. Hell JTA doesn't even understand route choice just look at the Southbank BRT - Skyway competition they are going to build!

BROOKLYN
As for Brooklyn, remember my preferred route for the Streetcar is Forest to MYRTLE to Bay to Lee to Water... using the original and historic streetcar subway. (As it sits it reminds me of the Louisville EL - a haunting and tempting ghost) While this route is a bit weaker on current adjacent infrastructure, Myrtle is a historic blowtorch waiting to be ignited. Also tempting is the opportunity to send that streetcar shooting straight up Myrtle to about 8Th, again the Myrtle route provides for that. At the same time Skyway on Riverside would balance the sector north of I-95 with two complimentary routes. Because of route choice there would be no need for competition between the modes. The frequent Skyway headways would be covering the air between the larger office towers, and the interconnected streetcar would be carrying the funky crowd to the word-a-day sights.

VA CLINIC
True, the Skyway would cross the BRT directly from the Jacksonville Terminal (until JTA gets the bright idea to blow the lettering off the front of that building it WILL NEVER BE THE JTC!) up Broad or back on Jefferson and Boulevard, this isn't the traffic the Skyway would be feeding into the VA/8Th street area. Running at a diagonal along the south-west edge of the historic parks (rather then through them as engineered) a stop just above Florida College, for FC/Health Dept/Bethel Church, a BRT connecting station at the residential towers, then into the VA/Shands complex. This traffic would originate in SAN MARCO, SOUTHBANK, BROOKLYN, DOWNTOWN, FLORIDA COLLEGE, and EASTSIDE riverfront. The BRT would feed in from NORTHSIDE, GATEWAY, LEM TURNER, SHANDS, JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL, SOUTHWEST, MURRAY HILL, ORANGE PARK, SOUTHBANK. I don't see much competition in this, but I do see the theory of complimenting layers of transit.

WEST?
While neither of us have addressed the future of Jacksonville West, the growth along Beaver and the Farmers Market can't be ignored forever. Nothing would be easier to conquer the mess consisting of I-95 ramps and bridges, JTA bus yard, Beaver Street Interlocking (CSX,NS,FEC) then the Skyway.  While I would NEVER venture to project the Skyway much beyond the core, tapping the edge of West Jacksonville-Westbrook Park area, might make all the future sense in the world. Unfortunately JTA is fixing to screw over any future westbound expansion by plopping an office building right at the end of the Jacksonville Terminal branch of the Skyway. Brilliant! I'm not saying it's my plan or anyone else's, I just wonder what they would propose if some business or developer put a few thousand new people in that area? I know, FLYING BUSES! Each flying bus will come with molded plastic bust with either Suraya Teeple or Ed Castinelli's face attached to the front!

JUST KIDDING! Hi Suraya, Hi Ed!



OCKLAWAHA