Mayor, other leaders brace for conflict over police-fire pension

[tufsu1]

I agree that we need to honor previous agreements....but pension reform for the future is necessary.

We just can't afford to pay people 80% of their last year's salary in retirement..especially when only 20 years of service is needed (many can retire by age 45)....meaning we could pay 40+ years of retirement for 20 years of service...plus police/fire spouses get 75% of last year's salary until their death if the retired employee dies first.

[CS Foltz]

City agreed to that pension outline......plain and simple! Now that there is a short fall, John Boy is grasping at any and all staws! His decree about all City workers taking a 3% pay cut did not appear to apply to him and his minions! Did not apply to all of the AMIO's, which cost us $27 Million Dollars a year.........don't see anyone of them stepping up to the line! So by my standards, Hiz Honor can kiss me where the sun don't shine! I do not believe a word he has to say about much of anything period!

[Timkin]

agree

[cityimrov]

Will the rest of the city agree too? 

[ChriswUfGator]

I for one actually think the police and firefghters deserve their pensions. This situation is nutty, the truth is that COJ scaled back its required contributions when the plans enjoyed substantial outperformance relative to their investment targets, but when the bubble deflates now all of a sudden it's "too expensive" to make up for the shortfall they created themselves.

Which , since someone else brought it up, is exactly the same thing that happened in the private sector. Companies scale back contributions when the market is doing well and the total plan assets exceed the required target, but when the market tanks and they have to make up the shortfall then it immediately becomes just one more cut to be made in the budget. As much as is wrong with the unions, they figured this scam out in the 1970's and have fought it tooth and nail ever since. And I give them credit for that.

Nobody wants to be responsible for anything anymore. A deal is a deal, and the city should honor theirs moving forward. I also think the federal laws governing these plans should change to require cash contributions to be based on 20 and 30 year historical returns, and not subject to constant modification in every way that will save the employer a nickel. The chickens eventually always come home to roost.

And yes I know this means I agree with NotNow, but that's the way I feel.

+1

Do you think the Citizens of Jax will be willing to honor their end of the deal?  The citizens pretty much elected the leaders and they are ultimately responsible for picking up the tab.  

That's been the problem with the current administration, they have never had any accountability to the public, and they still don't. I think by and large the public is absolutely embarassed when things come out about COJ trying to push through a landfill contract without voter approval that would have made the Mayor's buddies an extra hundred million bucks, at the same time they're trying to eliminate police and firemens' pensions claiming they're too expensive.

I think the public is embarassed to see all this going on while COJ has plunged ahead with a four hundred million dollar courthouse, despite outright public animosity towards the project, at the same the city is running around turning off people's street lights in Springfield  claiming they need to save money.

I think most people support pensions for our civil servants, and I think most people realize that the reason the city is broke has nothing to do with any of the proposed budget cuts, it has to do with ridiculous expenditures that serve no legitimate public purpose. If we can afford to give away that much money to the mayor's buds on a landfill contract, and if we can afford to give away forty million to Landmar, then I think it's not too much to expect our firemen to have a pension to support them in retirement.

And Tufsu, I also don't think it's reasonable to expect people to have some quality of life, or to expect people to work until they're 102 to get their retirement benefits. Because of the physically demanding nature of these jobs, police and firemen actually have a shorter working life.

[jbroadglide]

Chris I'm not arguing with you on any of what you have said. But I do want to point out a very commonly misunderstood issue and thats the courthouse project.

The courthouse is being built with funds from the Better Jacksonville Plan proposed by then Mayor Delaney and approved by voters way back in the late 90's. It specifically sets aside money to be used for Capitol Improvement Projects only. Period. The Baseball Grounds, the new Arena. The Courthouse. It can not, by law, be used to keep streetlights from being turned off in Springfield. Or keep city workers from having to take a pay cut. Or keep parks clean and mowed during the growing season.

I read this same argument just about every day every time the news media decides to dust off the budget story and get people enraged enough to comment on various media message boards. The city could go bankrupt and that courthouse is still going to be built because its funds can not be diverted to keep the city afloat.

You may already be aware of this. I just wanted to point that fact out.

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris I'm not arguing with you on any of what you have said. But I do want to point out a very commonly misunderstood issue and thats the courthouse project.

The courthouse is being built with funds from the Better Jacksonville Plan proposed by then Mayor Delaney and approved by voters way back in the late 90's. It specifically sets aside money to be used for Capitol Improvement Projects only. Period. The Baseball Grounds, the new Arena. The Courthouse. It can not, by law, be used to keep streetlights from being turned off in Springfield. Or keep city workers from having to take a pay cut. Or keep parks clean and mowed during the growing season.

I read this same argument just about every day every time the news media decides to dust off the budget story and get people enraged enough to comment on various media message boards. The city could go bankrupt and that courthouse is still going to be built because its funds can not be diverted to keep the city afloat.

You may already be aware of this. I just wanted to point that fact out.

The BJP barely set aside 1/3'rd of the cost of the current courthouse monstrosity, that thing has been bloated beyond all proportion to what was originally approved by the voters as part of the BJP. They may as well just rename it the Bloated Courthouse Plan at this point. It's hundreds of millions over budget from what was set aside as part of the BJP, and the additional money has no doubt been scavenged from other places/projects. You would be right had they actually stuck to the BJP and executed the project within some semblance of a budget, but they didn't.

[cline]

BJP set aside $211 million ($190 million plus $21 million from the BJP Vertical Contingency).  Total budget for the courthouse is $350 million.

[Ranger7]

When I think of what salary/benefit is "fair", I usually use the free market principle of employers paying what it takes to hire and retain the quality and quantity of workers needed for the mission.  Often referred to as supply and demand.

What troubles me in the current situation of our city workers is that my main source of info, the T-U, has never provided any in depth data.  A good story would be looking at it from the perspective of the guy/gal who has to do the hiring?  Is there a lot of turnover?  Many qualified people available, good times or bad? 

What about different departments.  I understand there essentially are no resignations of fire fighters.  But what about police?  And maintenance workers?

[ChriswUfGator]

BJP set aside $211 million ($190 million plus $21 million from the BJP Vertical Contingency).  Total budget for the courthouse is $350 million.

So you don't consider a 60.2% cost overrun, which totals nearly $150mm, and that had to be funded outside of the $200mm originally set aside in the BJP, to be significant? And you realize, that's only the publicly disclosed cost overrun to date, the thing is not even finished yet...

And COJ is trying to turn off people's streetlights and cancel firemens' pensions to save money? This doesn't bother you?

[stjr]

When I think of what salary/benefit is "fair", I usually use the free market principle of employers paying what it takes to hire and retain the quality and quantity of workers needed for the mission.  Often referred to as supply and demand.

What troubles me in the current situation of our city workers is that my main source of info, the T-U, has never provided any in depth data.  A good story would be looking at it from the perspective of the guy/gal who has to do the hiring?  Is there a lot of turnover?  Many qualified people available, good times or bad? 

What about different departments.  I understand there essentially are no resignations of fire fighters.  But what about police?  And maintenance workers?

Ranger, welcome to MJ.

I fully agree with your comment that the market determines pay and benefits.  Given that there appears to be long lines of applicants for these jobs and few departures prior to retirement, it would indicate the possibility that the City is paying over the market (i.e. versus alternatives in both the private and public sectors) for these jobs. This is why the City should have some legitimate wiggle room with respect to new hires going forward.  Nowhere is it written that pay and  benefits must always go up and never down.  That is not how any market works and it should be the same here.

[Dog Walker]

The Rational Market isn't. 

Economists call it the "sticky down".  It is much easier to raise prices and wages than to reduce them.  It usually takes what we are going through now, a severe recession or a depression.  Emotionally inflation is much easier for us to handle than deflation even if "real" wages are falling due to inflation.  Reducing wages, even in a time of falling prices when we have more purchasing power, makes us feel like we are losing something.

Guess that's why they call it a Depression.

[CS Foltz]

Police & Fire Pensions are locked in at this time............so be it! But nothing keeps new hires in both Departments from going into something different! John Boy was pushing for 3% paycut for all workers, but neglected to apply that to middle managers and up......including himself! Classic example of "Don't do what I do, but do what I say"! Uninformed buffoon and typical of upperclass elitism.........I would like to be able to fire him for nonperformance!

[NotNow]

You have the facts wrong.  Twenty years of service = 60% of base pay.  You have to put in 30 years to get 80%.  Spousal survivors benefit is 75% of the PENSION that the Officer was getting (or 75% of the 60%).  Just as a widow would receive survivors benefits from social security. 

Entitlement to retirement at twenty years is common in high risk professions.  Most Fire & Police departments as well as the military offer the benefit.  Generally as recognition for the physical disability incurred in such careers as well as the lower pay in generally offered.

I agree that we need to honor previous agreements....but pension reform for the future is necessary.

We just can't afford to pay people 80% of their last year's salary in retirement..especially when only 20 years of service is needed (many can retire by age 45)....meaning we could pay 40+ years of retirement for 20 years of service...plus police/fire spouses get 75% of last year's salary until their death if the retired employee dies first.

[dlemore]

It is my understanding the Police and fireman are already receiving more in benefits then the general employees of Jacksonville(is this because Sheriff Rutherford is receiving more from the Government via homeland security?)  The  Retirement for 20 years for a policeman or fireman is 60% of average pay whereas a General employee is only 50%.  Also, some general employees at retirement had to sign a waiver to bypass any cola or yearly raise(to my knowledge the p & F did not) I thought this was the consolidated city of Jacksonville....why may I ask is the Fire dept and the police dept seperate from the general employees pension plan....lets consolidate the unions and see if we can't be fair to all city employees with the same benefits and maybe save money for the taxpayers at the same time......On the national level lets merge the Federal pension plan with social security.....I betcha it won't run out of money for the baby boomers!!!.