Why Does Florida Need Amtrak?

[thelakelander]

Great example, JeffreyS.

[tufsu1]

Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.

yep...I helped write a letter to the editor this week that includes that reminder in the closing paragraph.

[ProjectMaximus]

Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.

yep...I helped write a letter to the editor this week that includes that reminder in the closing paragraph.

letter to the editor where?

[Ocklawaha]

I understand that there is probably better things to spend $2.4 billion on, but if it can only be used for HSR, and its being offered to the state of Florida, why reject it. 

Because the CURRENT HSR PLAN is going to fail so big as to destroy HSR in the USA for decades. Think SKYWAY on steroids.

Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.

TRUE, the wise will build LIGHT RAIL and a Carolina-Like rail passenger system. Florida is planning NEITHER, and until a plan comes along that has a chance of real success in ridership, traffic relief, checking sprawl, lowering costs and travel time, we should keep our hands out of the cookie jar. Florida HIGH SPEED RAIL will do none of those things BTW.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Keep your hands out the jar too long and you'll starve yourself to death.

[stjr]

I understand that there is probably better things to spend $2.4 billion on, but if it can only be used for HSR, and its being offered to the state of Florida, why reject it.  

Because the CURRENT HSR PLAN is going to fail so big as to destroy HSR in the USA for decades. Think SKYWAY on steroids.

Ock, for the same reason you cite here for not building the proposed HSR, we should all be for NOT building a further expansion of the Skyway.  A further expansion will merely magnify the Skyway's already legendary folly.  As such, it will damage even more the hopes for commuter rail and streetcars in Jax.  It may even damage support for intercity rail between Jax and points elsewhere.

Once we realize that expansion of the Skyway is akin to Ock's issues with this HSR project, we should go on and kill the Skyway, as well, given we seem to agree it doesn't work in its current configuration either.

[Ocklawaha]

Your talking apples and watermelon's stjr.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Your talking apples and watermelon's stjr.

OCKLAWAHA

I love both, Ock.  Which is you and which is me? 

If you read the comments made on various local comment threads regarding the HSR decision, you will see multitudes of references to the failing Skyway.  Likewise, on 89.9's call-in show this week on the subject with Steve from MJ participating.  Tell me the Skyway hasn't influenced public (and, thus, political) thinking on rail mass transit.  Doesn't matter what you think the "reality" is, it is the "perception" here that ultimately affects support for such projects.  Right or wrong, the Skyway has dramatically impacted that "perception".  As I have said before, you can ignore that at the peril to higher priority projects.  The "track" (no pun intended) record speaks for itself.  Not a single area rail project since the Skyway came out of the ground and no evidence in the public realm that any firm commitments to fund and build such projects are on the horizon.  Just lip service and delaying study upon worthless study to appease the likes of mass transit supporters by a toothless TPO controlled by master road builders, FDOT and JTA.

[stjr]

^Stephen, you digress.  My post here had to do with the politics of the Skyway, not its performance.  I was merely noting the similarities in Ock's observations about the political consequences of a failing HSR project with that of the failing Skyway.  I stand by my post.

As to your claim that every car is running at capacity and the Skyway is finally "succeeding" (I guess you are saying the Skyway is now carrying 100% or more of the projected riders from 20 years ago, up from less than 10% just months ago?), well, thanks for the laugh of the day.  You should call in the general media for that breaking news!

And, regarding the failure of Downtown, that's a chicken and egg discussion.  The Skyway was promised to be a catalyst for downtown, not the other way around.

[thelakelander]

I don't agree with stjr's position on the skyway but I do see how Ock's position with Florida's HSR plan is similar to stjr's argument on the skyway.  In both cases, I think taking advantage of the federal money was/is a good thing.  Imo, where we continue to fall apart is in the implementation and long term land integration process.  Considering these opportunities only present themselves every other decade or so, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, with no viable alternative plan or funding for it in place, is simply foolish to me.

[tufsu1]

Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.

yep...I helped write a letter to the editor this week that includes that reminder in the closing paragraph.

letter to the editor where?

it was sent to newspapers all over the state...time will tell on who picks it up

[thelakelander]

Send it to us. Maybe we'll run it on the front page next week.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't agree with stjr's position on the skyway but I do see how Ock's position with Florida's HSR plan is similar to stjr's argument on the skyway.

Certainly there were similaritarys back before the Skyway was built, but today, the Skyway is the rough equal to 5 miles of the CSX corridor in Central Florida with a rocket train on it.  They should have gone with a simple, off the shelf, conventional technology and not try and reinvent the wheel. Likewise, HSR down the middle of a freeway and missing not only 75% of the corridor, but missing the Orlando Metropolitan area itself SHOULD NEVER BE BUILT. The catch is, we did build the Skyway, right over the protests and howls of a good sector of the public, (shades of JTA's BRT shows), we got the money and it is SPENT. Today it is time to correct the mistakes by revamping the system to something more down-to-earth, finding TOD and other uses within it's stations, and selling anything and everything related to Skyway to raise funds. As this segment goes from nothing to nowhere, not unlike HSR, we need to complete it to reach the markets. In the case of HSR, we need to redraw the lines so that it too reaches the markets and does so managable technological increments.

In both cases, I think taking advantage of the federal money was/is a good thing.  Imo, where we continue to fall apart is in the implementation and long term land integration process.  Considering these opportunities only present themselves every other decade or so, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, with no viable alternative plan or funding for it in place, is simply foolish to me.

The apparent disagreement of my position and your Lake, is that I don't see it as throwing the baby out with the bath water. With the Skyway we need to revisit and correct the mistake of never completing a single proposed route, we can fix the fixable, but it's a little late to cancel the project. Remember refunding those dollars to the FRA or the FTA, whatever we scrap we must refund. With HSR we need to STOP, redraw the lines, tweek the plan, and forge straight ahead. I don't believe this means cancel the project forever, or even that we must forgo the federal dollars, but we MUST GET THIS RIGHT.

What disturbs me most is the degree of control the private parties will have in decision making. From what I read Florida says, "It must be: this, that and these... bid on it and see if you can make it fly." Rather then a more reasonable approach that says, it should run from this city to that city and YOU figure out where and how.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Has the RFP been released?  It would be interesting to see exactly what it does say.  I thought that it hadn't at this point.  For all we know, you might be able to get away with conventional technology and have a little flexibility in creating a workable project.  All of these are answers that should not be guesses before sending $2.4 billion to another state with no true funding in place for an alternative.  Anyway, I did find it interesting that even at the current estimated cost, it shakes out to around $30 million a mile.

[yapp1850]

i really hope amtrak could take over this high speed rail from the state of florida but john mica really hates amtrak because it cost over a 1.4-1.6 bil year to operate therse is no way john mica will allow amtrak too take over.