$ky-high-way POLL: Pick it's fate (or your poison)!

[thelakelander]

Any idea how much money streets, libraries, parks and schools lost over the same period?  I'm not saying the skyway doesn't have its problems (Ex. the turnstiles are broken half of the time), but it would be interesting to see how it's numbers compare with other public offerings.

[stjr]

Shocker: if it were expanded to areas where people lived, people would USE IT.

I live near Five Points. If we had a stop nearby, I wouldn't hesitate to hop the Skyway to downtown or San Marco or anywhere else it went (if expanded).

With it's current route, it's worthless. Expanded, it can be of great value to the city.

Wanderlust, no problem.  Just check the box for the answer below and maybe the government genies will grant your wish.  But, as with all magic lamps, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

"I would love that elevated concrete elephant in my neighborhood.  It would do wonders beautifying it and fit in with all that traditional architecture.  Screw the purists and historic preservationists.  What do they know?"

[I guess you expect the merchants of 5 Points would be happy to have their customers go somewhere else for two or more years (as happened Downtown) while Park Street is torn up. If any businesses survive (very few did Downtown), they will surely be happy to have this two story concrete monster be a permanent addition down the middle of Park Street.  That should really improve the ambiance of 5 Points.  And, I suppose your residential neighbors will feel the $ky-high-way will fit right in with the neighborhood architecture.  Kind of like I-95 replacing Riverside Avenue?  P.S. There is that little issue too of getting under I-95.  Maybe someone here knows if the bridge is high enough to clear it.]

[One other note:  Which block of 5 Points to you want to level to make way for the station? and any needed parking or other approaches for buses, taxis, or drop offs?]

[thelakelander]

To get it under I-95, you could drop it down to grade, which would also cut down on construction costs.


Skyway cars at grade.  FYI,  while cheaper, extensive at-grade lengths would eliminate several street intersections.


The Indianapolis Clarian Peoplemover under an expressway with lower height clearance than the Fuller Warren.

However, RAP would tar and feather anyone suggesting it be extended into the historic district.

[Ocklawaha]

The Indianapolis Clarian Peoplemover under an expressway with lower height clearance than the Fuller Warren.

However, RAP would tar and feather anyone suggesting it be extended into the historic district.

Agreed, I can't imagine the Skyway being welcomed into any preservation area. Riverside Avenue would be the only likely corridor for the Skyway and the end point terminal, either at Blue Cross or Francis Lytle.

Likewise, San Marco, I can't see it flying over the lions... Can you imagine what a war we would have over that? Get it west of the FEC railroad and take it south to Atlantic, where it could meet buses, streetcars, trolley bus or Commuter Rail. Then again, maybe blowing it through San Marco would put us on the historical map - after all Japan's Civil War lasted 700 years!

Shand's, I don't see any problem with taking it up through FCCJ, and to the edge of Klutho Park. From this point on north, it would almost have to ride low along Hogans Creek at an elevation just high enough to keep crazies from frying themselves on the 3RD rail. So you creep along the west side of Hogans Creek at 10' elevation then raise up to clear streets.

If the Shand's line tied into the Commuter Rail Station at Boulevard, and was completed to the Stadium/Randolph area, it would create a unique traffic route, both feeding and being fed by the Rail at Shand's.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Thanks, Lake.  JTA's $ky-high-way is last in absolute riders, last in riders per mile, and almost in a dead heat for last in riders per capita.  No matter how you measure it, an abysmal failure.  And, with all those "new residences downtown", ridership has dropped almost in half!  Per my motto, where is the COMMON SENSE!

This makes me FRUSTRATED, not happy.  That my taxpayer $$ are currently paying for this mess, likely will be paying for it the rest of my life, and may be paying even more for it if the expansion proponents get their way.  People will passionately push for millions for this turkey, but can't find any $$$ for the most underfunded educational systems in the United States!!!

Rank/System/Largest city served/Weekday ridership[footnote reference] /Date/Route miles[footnote reference]/Year opened   
1 New York City Subway New York City 7,880,000 [2] 2008 Q4 656 [3] 1868
2 Mexico City Metro Mexico City 4,400,000 1993 110 [4] 1969
3 Montreal Metro Montreal 987,000 [5] 2008 Q2 40.59[6] 1966
4 Toronto Subway* Toronto 976,500 [7] 2008 Q4 38 [8] 1954
5 Metrorail Washington, D.C. 944,400 [2] 2008 Q4 106.3[9] 1976
6 Chicago 'L' Chicago 640,700[2] 2008 Q4 136.7[10] 1892
7 Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (or "T")* Boston 485,800[2] 2008 Q4 65.5[11] 1897
8 BART San Francisco 379,400[2] 2008 Q4 104[12] 1972
9 SEPTA* Philadelphia 318,000[2] 2008 Q4 25[13] 1907
10 Vancouver SkyTrain Vancouver 271,000 2007 31[14] 1985
11 MARTA Atlanta 269,700[2] 2008 Q4 47.6[15] 1979
12 PATH New York City 250,400[2] 2008 Q4 13.8[16] 1908
13 Metro Rail* Los Angeles 139,700[2] 2008 Q4 17.4[17] 1990
14 Metrorail Miami 63,800[2] 2008 Q4 22[18] 1984
15 Baltimore Metro Subway* Baltimore 53,300[2] 2008 Q4 15.5[19] 1983
16 PATCO Speedline Philadelphia 36,600[2] 2008 Q4 14.2[20] 1936
17 Tren Urbano San Juan 36,800[2] 2008 Q4 10.7[21] 2004
18 RTA Rapid Transit* Cleveland 29,800[22] Third quarter of 2007 19[23] 1955
19 Staten Island Railway New York City 15,900[2] 2008 Q4 14[24] 1971
20 Detroit People Mover Detroit 4,300[2] 2008 Q4 2.9[25] 1987
21 JTA Skyway Jacksonville 1,700[2] 2008 Q4 2.5[26] 2000

Maybe this list would be of some value if it was a comparison of similar systems....the only one on here remotely similar is Detroit....but what about the people movers in Miami, Indy, or Moirgantown, WV....the Skyway might still be last but at least then it would mean something!

[thelakelander]

Fall 2008 APM Count

Systems + Ridership in thousands pax/day

28,000 Miami Metromover
20,000 Morgantown PRT, WV
  3,000 Detroit DPM, MI
  2,000 Jacksonville Skyway
  1,000 ClarHealth Indianapolis

link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

[mtraininjax]

If the FEDS are dumb enough to finance it, keep adding to the rail that goes nowhere. People in DC are idiots!

[Ocklawaha]

Lake did your source have the following systems in it:

Duke University
Old Dominion
Huntsville Hospital
NC Centennial Campus (don't know if it's opened yet)
Las Colinas

Also look at the AMAZING headways on most of the DPM systems and compaire them with us. Every 15 seconds at Morgantown! Every 30-45 seconds on others. Ours is every what? Sometimes 15 minutes.

By the Way, DETROIT was probably the best system built because it is a standard gauge electric induction RAILROAD elevated above the streets. Steel Wheel on Steel Rails. Stations have by-pass tracks, and frankly it could be converted to modern streetcar almost as easy as flipping a switch.

Several of the other cities are using US as an example and converting their systems to true Monorail. Except for the "DISNEY FANTASY FACTOR" I really don't see monorails ever approaching the abilitys of steel rail systems. The only benefit is they can fly. For those that think monorails will someday whisk folks from city to city.... Uh....Hate to burst your bubble, but Monorails pre-date steel railroads by a number of years! Don't you think if they were so great, we would have had the Golden Beam rather then the Golden Spike?

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Except for the "DISNEY FANTASY FACTOR" I really don't see monorails ever approaching the abilitys of steel rail systems. The only benefit is they can fly. For those that think monorails will someday whisk folks from city to city.... Uh....Hate to burst your bubble, but Monorails pre-date steel railroads by a number of years! Don't you think if they were so great, we would have had the Golden Beam rather then the Golden Spike?

Another issue with the $ky-high-way, Ock?  Should we check this answer?:

"I can't afford Disney so let me have this ride instead.  It's worth hundreds of millions to carry me to dinner or my once a year visit to the stadium.  I don't care what it costs." 

[stjr]

Fall 2008 APM Count

Systems + Ridership in thousands pax/day

28,000 Miami Metromover
20,000 Morgantown PRT, WV
  3,000 Detroit DPM, MI
  2,000 Jacksonville Skyway
  1,000 ClarHealth Indianapolis

link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

Lake, the Indianapolis system is a lot smaller in scope than ours per below.  But what is interesting, is that it cost so much less to build and operate than ours yet appears similar in design and capacity.  What gives?

As to the other systems you list, it just shows how far we have to go.  Really, does anyone see 10x (and that may still be a failure feasibility-wise) the current 1,700 riders we have in our lifetimes?  even with an expansion dreamed of by some?

The Clarian People Mover is America's first privately owned transit system to operate over city streets.  Each vehicle can seat 8 and stand another 19.  A train-set includes 3 vehicles for a total of 81 people.  Each fully automated trainset will travel at up to 30 mph on rubber wheels riding on pre-stressed concrete guideways.  Empty weight of each trainset is 45,000 pounds. Even though a 1700" section of an 18" gas main had to be moved laterally 5 feet, the overall cost of the system was only $40M.  The Clarion People Mover is 14,800 feet long (7,400-foot long two-way guideway), or about $14.2m per one-way mile.  Operating costs are estimated at $900K per year (2.25% of construction cost).  The project broke ground in May of 2001, and the superstructure was completely erected by mid-2002, right on schedule.  The system was commissioned in the Spring of 2003.  System capacity is 1800 riders per hour with an expected 500,000 riders per year.

http://www.advancedtransit.org/doc.aspx?id=1061

[thelakelander]

Lake did your source have the following systems in it:

Duke University
Old Dominion
Huntsville Hospital
NC Centennial Campus (don't know if it's opened yet)
Las Colinas

Its got a ton of systems from across the world on it.  Just click on the link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

[thelakelander]

Stjr, the Indy system is cheaper because ours is vastly overbuilt.  If expansion were to take place here, there is no reason it could not be built as cheap as the Indy system.

[thelakelander]

Btw, I can see 10x the ridership IF there were regional rail feeding a skyway that served the stadium, Riverside Avenue (north of I-95) and San Marco (across the railroad tracks).  Miami's Metromover averages almost 30,000 riders a day.  This is mainly a result of Metrorail and Tri-Rail feeding it with riders from the burbs and other dense areas of South Florida.  Metromover fills up pretty quick when Miami Heat games are taking place.  I assume the skyway would see the same during Jags games, special events and Metropolitan Park feastivals.

[stjr]

Lake did your source have the following systems in it:

Duke University
Old Dominion
Huntsville Hospital
NC Centennial Campus (don't know if it's opened yet)
Las Colinas

Its got a ton of systems from across the world on it.  Just click on the link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

With the exception of the Detroit People Mover, which is just as disastrous as ours (and you still say the concept works?), our "competition" for least riders are mostly zoos and hospitals!  I bet if you further examined all these systems, the apples to apples gap in our traffic with systems having comparable expectations would be a chasm the size of the Grand Canyon.

[stjr]

Btw, I can see 10x the ridership IF there were regional rail feeding a skyway that served the stadium, Riverside Avenue (north of I-95) and San Marco (across the railroad tracks).  Miami's Metromover averages almost 30,000 riders a day.  This is mainly a result of Metrorail and Tri-Rail feeding it with riders from the burbs and other dense areas of South Florida.  Metromover fills up pretty quick when Miami Heat games are taking place.  I assume the skyway would see the same during Jags games, special events and Metropolitan Park feastivals.

Lake, there is plenty of parking in the sports area for Metro Park, the Arena, and the Baseball Grounds.  That just leaves the Jags.  We are talking 10 games a year if they sell out.  Add Fla-Ga, the Gator Bowl, and a couple of exhibition or other stadium events.  At best, 20 days of the year.  For this, we would build the $ky-high-way?  Really?  Sell that to the taxpayers after all the gifts we gave building the stadium and enhancing it.  Also, how many people per hour can the $ky-high-way move to the stadium working its little heart out?  Would that make a dent in the traffic to move?

As to interconnectivity, why don't we see the building of other links before consdering expanding the $ky-high-way?  I don't believe those links are arriving anytime soon so the "expanded" system you advocate could be sitting for a very long time waiting for that undelivered traffic.  That's just more unproductive investments and deeper operating losses.

Again, I think proponents are really stretching to justify expansions in any direction.