$ky-high-way POLL: Pick it's fate (or your poison)!

[stjr]

Stjr, so what is your response to 78% of the majority of the votes suggesting expansion at some point in the future?

The now 75% of this very unscientific straw poll say expand only after all other rail mass transit.

Since rail mass transit won't be accomplished anytime soon, as you well know, that's almost akin to saying the $ky-high-way should never be done.  Check in again in another 10 years as that, to me, is the minimum, at Jax's usual speeds on these matters, I would predict a physical rail mass transit system actually being finished.

This has been one point I have been driving home.  Rail mass transit needs are the priority to be focused on without any distractions from discussing the expansion of the $ky-high-way!  Too many people on MJ think that one has no impact on the other and they can have their cake and eat it to.  Not gonna happen.  So, let's stop talking about the $ky-high-way for now, and laser in on the rail mass transit.  You and Ock know better than anyone what an accomplishment that would be in itself.

[EDIT: I clairified some of the wording for Shwaz. And "laser" is the correct spelling.]

[Shwaz]

The now 75% of this very unscientific straw poll say expand only after all other rail mass transit.

Since that won't be accomplished anytime soon, as you well know, that's almost akin to saying it should never be done.

So, let's stop talking about the $ky-high-way for now, and laser in on the rail mass transit.

So "lazer in" on something that may never happen or at least not in the next 10 years?

[thelakelander]

Stjr, so what is your response to 78% of the majority of the votes suggesting expansion at some point in the future?

The now 75% of this very unscientific straw poll say expand only after all other rail mass transit.

Since rail mass transit won't be accomplished anytime soon, as you well know, that's almost akin to saying the $ky-high-way should never be done.  Check in again in another 10 years as that, to me, is the minimum, at Jax's usual speeds on these matters, I would predict a physical rail mass transit system actually being finished.

This has been one point I have been driving home.

This is the flaw in the survey.  As shown by the example in my original post, there are other logical options but they were not available for selection in the unscientific straw poll.  Without making these options available, the survey loses credibility.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, there is no bias.  I got you covered.  Even though I said only one answer, you picked two:

(1)  Let's go for DOUBLE OR NOTHING.  I don't give a damn about history or proven failure.  Let' double our bet by expanding the system and hope people chose it over other transportation options that are better and cheaper  and

(2) Grow this monster!  Expand it because I believe those same experts who screwed the original projections up by 90%.  They can't possibly be wrong twice!  I have faith.

See...this is where the fun begins.  Pick your poison 

Thanks for participating.

P.S. Ock, I took my cue from your railroad survey (which I dutifully completed sans the $ky-high-way question!)  I thought your questions led the survey taker right to where you wanted to take them.  Don't I get an A+ for learning the craft?

stjr and anyone else interested in the Skyway should look into the archives of MetroJacksonville.com and find out who the original opposition was to this project. See who it was that pulled the Jacksonville Journal and the TU into the battle against building the damn thing. 29 Years of "I TOLD YOU SO..." wears rather thin. In fact we reprinted the original article where the late George Harmon, Editor of the JJ decided he didn't have answers to the "People Mover Question."

This fight got VERY NASTY, I was suddenly Democratic Committee Man Dist 1, and invited to all of Godbolds private party's. Meanwhile (probably under some under the table orders) the City proceeded to scrap 5 perfectly mint condition Jacksonville Streetcar which we had located! They then decided that the Streetcar Barn across from the Times Union, a heritage site dating to the 1890's, had "gotten in the way" of the New Acosta Bridge. In a matter of days we held a reunion for the old streetcar employees and had quite a turnout. They were given keys to the city and the media was all over it. While we were there they pointed out a chain link fenced cage high above the floor at the top of the stairs. It was packed they said with Uniforms, badges, tickets, tokens, corporate records, 10,000 photos, etc, etc... Councilman Eric Smith and Jim Wells made a point to schedule a visit the next morning to remove the stuff in a city truck. Well turns out after the stash was discovered, a JTA dump truck was dispatched to haul the entire room to the Northside land fill. Some of us INCLUDING TWO COUNCILMEN in tee shirts and jeans, waded into the rotting pile of garbage trying to locate the spot where JTA had supposedly dumped the records. We got nothing but physical illness from the adventure.

The final chapter seems surreal, a great friend with the Chamber of Commerce was out at my house in Arlington for dinner, when the wives retired from the table, F.P. told me, "Bob, I'm your friend, IF YOU EVER WANT TO WORK AGAIN, GET OUT OF JACKSONVILLE!" Considering what had transpired, I took that as a possible danger to my family and left... Turned out to be a great and positive $$ decision.

But you see stjr, you can't keep a good idea down for very long, so guess what Jacksonville... I'm retired, I don't need YOU, and I'm here to see to RAIL TRANSIT even if it is over my dead body. Want to threaten me? Well F**K Y*U! You know where I live so come and get it.

So how did I get from this to being pro-Skyway? If anyone should hate the damn thing it's me! Bottom line, we have it. We have invested $180, Million dollars in the system. We made a lot of mistakes, but then we are the first city to really have a internal Monorail NETWORK. (Seattle's is a point to point short line, the other DPM'S are not Monorails). What did we do wrong?

1. It's incredibly over engineered.
2. Monorails need a MONO RAIL, Latin for ONE! UNO! We sure didn't need to build that elevated highway, with siderails plus a monorail beam in it. Yes I know the older parts weren't Monorail at first and that explains the DPM track, what it doesn't explain is why when we extended South - AFTER switching to Monorail, we went ahead and built the DPM track and Beam all over again? WTF?
3. We never ordered the center cars, though we OWN the rights to them and could even licence them to other cities.
4. We spent at least half if not 2/3Rd of the money on the SKYWAY CENTER in Brooklyn... Remember that streetcar barn? Yeah the same spot, turned out the New Acosta bridge missed it afterall! The center is a very high tech operations and maintenance facility that could easily care for a system 20+ miles long. It even has ATC-AUTOMATIC TRAIN CONTROL, something that CSX, and NS have just recently been ordered by the government to install (along with all the other railroads). The computers at the stations and the center would fill a room, and the dispatch center with it's optical screen and 70+ video screens is truly STATE OF THE ART in railroading. Trouble is it was never told where the money really went. Everyone got a nasty taste in their mouth for the $90 Million dollar a mile train to nowhere.
5. Mistake 5, is all 5 of the worst mistakes. Wild traffic projections on any transit venture are the wrong way to go, so are lo-ball prices... We did both, then when the numbers didn't pan out and the public outcry started, we walked away from the project before it connected any logical venues.

No transit system is going to succeed when it runs from (somewhere close to) a parking garage, that is impossible to get to from the freeway, to a convention center that is too small to be used by anyone bigger then the garden club, to a bus transit hub that supposes everyone wants to go to that Convention Center or that stupid Parking garage. Got it? Dumb as rock.

I STILL DO NOT support a massive Skyway system all over Duval County. It frankly isn't designed to be such a system. But at the same time we are NOT doing what it IS DESIGNED to do. IE: go INTO buildings, through lights and fountains, and tie downtown social and commercial centers with links to outside the urbanized area. To reach a base of ridership that makes sense and to bring down the cost per mile, a 10.5 mile system, based on recent engineering estimates could be built for LESS money then JTA planned to spend for the BRT Quickway Bus System. A completed Skyway is about the cost of a deluxe Light Rail system.

The Skyway shines in another way too, but again, we've completely missed the mark. Every station should be a destination in and of itself. A place where you might go to buy a flower for the honey, or buy honey for your flower. Specialty shops, food, hot dog carts, bike rentals, etc...

Then once you attract the crowd, you MUST do something with it that Streetcar or Light Rail or BRT or BUS can't do as easily... FLY.  Taking it South through the new Hilton and WEST of the FEC RR to a stop in San Marco at Atlantic and the Railroad Tracks, would finally give it a south end station with things to do, people to meet, and easy access. Nobody and nothing else can fly over those parked trains. Blue Cross, Everbank, Fidelity, the Skyway should have a 3 level terminal there with a second floor "skywalk" into the buildings from the center of Riverside Avenue. Kutho Park could be the home of a route about 1/2 as high as most of the lines, Fly over FCCJ and 1St Street, then hug the creek area at an elevation just high enough to easily walk under or drive a mower under. Fly over cross streets and settle it into the 8Th street hospitals. Ditto for the Stadium, and all the surrounding area's and perhaps the BEST place in the City to place a park and ride at the edge of the urbanized area.

This is my Skyway story... I thought you should know.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock:

so guess what Jacksonville... I'm retired, I don't need YOU, and I'm here to see to RAIL TRANSIT even if it is over my dead body.

Ock and Lake, I think you guys are doing a great job championing rail.  I understand your sentiments about the $ky-high-way but still think you are missing the political realities:  The public is likely to only stomach one fixed mass transit project at a time.  That's why I say pick your poison.  If you can only save one option, what will it be?

My choice is suburban rail as I think this will have the greatest impact on Jax for the $$$.  Next, before more rail, would probably be more buses (but not BRT- just more routes and frequency).  Then, street cars.  The $ky-high-way would be so low on my list that I don't see the City ever getting to it in my lifetime (thank goodness, from my perspective) or Ock's given that absolutely nothing is close to reality with any of these options at the current time.

Ock, I want you to achieve your vision but believe you are overestimating the political capacity to handle more than one option.  I think I am doing you and Lake a favor to point this out.  The $ky-high-way is a joke among the public at large (MJ posters notwithstanding) and has set back, politically, fixed rail in the community by at least a couple of decades.

Should the $ky-high-way jump to the front of the line AGAIN, you will one day see your rail transit... unfortunately, over your dead body as you stated.  Again, if only one choice be it, what will it be?[/color]

[thelakelander]

Ock:

so guess what Jacksonville... I'm retired, I don't need YOU, and I'm here to see to RAIL TRANSIT even if it is over my dead body.

Ock and Lake, I think you guys are doing a great job championing rail.  I understand your sentiments about the $ky-high-way but still think you are missing the political realities:  The public is likely to only stomach one fixed mass transit project at a time.  That's why I say pick your poison.  If you can only save one option, what will it be?

Actually, my opinion on the skyway falls somewhere in the middle of your positions.  I don't endorse extending the skyway into a 10 mile system, as Ock suggested.  I also don't think it makes sense to immediately extend it's length without developing portions of other cost efficient modes first.  However, I also don't think its smart to develop commuter rail to Yulee before building a skyway station at the O&M facility or incorporating the skyway into the JTC, assuming a TOD pops up there.  Heck, depending on what corridor is developed, it could make sense to do some streetcar, commuter rail, extend the skyway and then add more streetcar and commuter rail.  However, this was not an option.  Developing an integrated transit system isn't an either or situation.  It depends on several factors that I believe should be evaluated on an individual/cost feasibility basis.  That's my position.

My choice is suburban rail as I think this will have the greatest impact on Jax for the $$$.  Next, before more rail, would probably be more buses (but not BRT- just more routes and frequency).  Then, street cars.  The $ky-high-way would be so low on my list that I don't see the City ever getting to it in my lifetime (thank goodness, from my perspective) or Ock's given that absolutely nothing is close to reality with any of these options at the current time.

My position is that, with rail, the most important thing is providing residents with efficient service between various destinations.  With that said, to me, its not about suburban rail vs. streetcar, Amtrak or the skyway.  Its about developing a master plan and jumping on opportunities when they present themselves.  In our current situation, my priorities would be:

1. Amtrak with satellite stations

They have federal money that will help reduce the capital cost of commuter rail.  They also already have the ability to operate on freight railroads.  The satellite stations also allow TOD and daily commuting opportunities between DT, Clay and St. Johns Counties.

2. Streetcar - Riverside to Springfield

We already have the money needed to construct and operate this segment for a couple of decades.  We also don't have to purchase or lease ROW or negotiate with CSX, FEC or NS to get a starter segment up and running.  Most importantly, it connects urban neighborhoods, entertainment and major employment centers with DT and the existing skyway.  If we want rail with local money, this is the quickest mode to get underway with the highest TOD stimulation potential.

3. Commuter Rail -CSX A/S-Line

Only if the Orlando Sunrail deal goes through.  The reduction of freight traffic and Clay's congestion issues make it a natural.  If the Sunrail deal fails, then the S-Line/Northside route (to the airport, not Yulee), since St. Augustine would already be connected by Amtrak.  However, since these corridors cost more than $100 million, it may be a decade or so before federal assistance comes online.  This is why I'd move forward with a streetcar starter first.  If made a priority, it could be operational in less than two years.

4. Skyway

It all depends on what you consider expansion, it's cost feasibility and potential to generate higher ridership.  For example, if a major development rises on the Brooklyn Park site, I'd endorse adding a skyway station there immediately, regardless of what's going on with Amtrak, commuter rail or the streetcar.  Now if you're taking about extending it to Shands, I'd favor canning that option and going with the commuter rail line through the Northside instead.

5. Buses

Although essential, they are not worth talking about.  Imo, as rail comes online, the existing bus system should be gradually revised to feed rail corridors with riders.  In short, rail becomes the transit spine and the existing bus fleet complements it.

Ock, I want you to achieve your vision but believe you are overestimating the political capacity to handle more than one option.  I think I am doing you and Lake a favor to point this out.  The $ky-high-way is a joke among the public at large (MJ posters notwithstanding) and has set back, politically, fixed rail in the community by at least a couple of decades.

You're not doing me a favor, showing me anything or changing my opinion on the possibility of extending the skyway (when and if it makes sense to do so).  With me, I'll continue to consider all options on a case-by-case basis.

[stjr]

Lake:

I'll continue to consider all options on a case-by-case basis.

Lake, you are thinking "flexibly" and allowing for "multitasking."  That's great if it can be done.  But, I don't think those concepts exist in the vocabulary of the decision makers of government funding or will be tolerated by the political process.  It takes long lead times to muster support and funding approval of these things and the participants work with straight jackets wrapped around their brains (just read Ock's post about his 29 years worth of experiences above).  Getting the process to adjust as nimbly as your vision would require to be successful doesn't seem feasible to me.

That brings me back to the world of reality.  If you wanted to start the process today to secure funding for a project years down the road knowing once you started locking in support for said project it would be tough to back away from it and chase another option, after careful and responsible thinking, what one project would you commit to now and begin work on?

Amtrak
Commuter Rail
Buses
Street Car
$ky-high-way

[thelakelander]

I assume you mean implementation because there's no reason we can do the necessary studies for multiple modes at once, which is already being done.  I also don't see a big fuss being raised if an extra skyway station was constructed at the existing O&M center, assuming a massive development goes in next door.  I'd probably argue that it would not be an extenstion since the skyway track is already in place.  Nevertheless, under your terms, I'd immediately tackle two, while moving another forward in the process for federal funding qualification.

1. Amtrak - my highest priority since there is already a battle for where they will spend their new found funding.  However, all we need to do locally is lobby (ex. resolution letters, public support, etc.) the state to fight for a piece of the pie.

2. Streetcar starter - we already have the money (BJP transit funds), right-of-way (existing streets), decent density (DT, Springfield, Riverside) and destinations (DT, Five Points, Riverside Av).

3. Commuter rail - studies necessary for federal funding can continue while we pursue Amtrak and implement a locally funded streetcar starter at the same time.  Its being done in our peer cities so it can be done in Jacksonville.

 

[ProjectMaximus]

Again, if only one choice be it, what will it be?[/b]

Ha! Nice attempt at disguising the purpose of your poll. But we all know you just wanted to let off some steam with your hatred of the $$kyway$$$ (sic )

Had you really wanted to know what the next step would be, you would have offered far less satirical options and/or you would have read all the other threads where Lake and Ock, among others, have discussed ad nauseum what they believe the priorities for mass transit should be. ie, after reading this thread I've seen nothing new that I haven't seen before (from Ock, Lake, or yourself).

You have every right to start whatever discussions you want so I'm in no way discouraging you from doing so, but just being real. Your intent never was to find out what our one and only choice would be...

[thelakelander]

This should make stjr happy...

I was just checking out ridership numbers of various transit systems and the Skyway is only averaging 1,700 riders a day.  This is a significant decrease from the 3,000/day average of a couple of years ago.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership

[stjr]

This should make stjr happy...

I was just checking out ridership numbers of various transit systems and the Skyway is only averaging 1,700 riders a day.  This is a significant decrease from the 3,000/day average of a couple of years ago.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership

Thanks, Lake.  JTA's $ky-high-way is last in absolute riders, last in riders per mile, and almost in a dead heat for last in riders per capita.  No matter how you measure it, an abysmal failure.  And, with all those "new residences downtown", ridership has dropped almost in half!  Per my motto, where is the COMMON SENSE!

This makes me FRUSTRATED, not happy.  That my taxpayer $$ are currently paying for this mess, likely will be paying for it the rest of my life, and may be paying even more for it if the expansion proponents get their way.  People will passionately push for millions for this turkey, but can't find any $$$ for the most underfunded educational systems in the United States!!!

Rank/System/Largest city served/Weekday ridership[footnote reference] /Date/Route miles[footnote reference]/Year opened    
1 New York City Subway New York City 7,880,000 [2] 2008 Q4 656 [3] 1868
2 Mexico City Metro Mexico City 4,400,000 1993 110 [4] 1969
3 Montreal Metro Montreal 987,000 [5] 2008 Q2 40.59[6] 1966
4 Toronto Subway* Toronto 976,500 [7] 2008 Q4 38 [8] 1954
5 Metrorail Washington, D.C. 944,400 [2] 2008 Q4 106.3[9] 1976
6 Chicago 'L' Chicago 640,700[2] 2008 Q4 136.7[10] 1892
7 Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (or "T")* Boston 485,800[2] 2008 Q4 65.5[11] 1897
8 BART San Francisco 379,400[2] 2008 Q4 104[12] 1972
9 SEPTA* Philadelphia 318,000[2] 2008 Q4 25[13] 1907
10 Vancouver SkyTrain Vancouver 271,000 2007 31[14] 1985
11 MARTA Atlanta 269,700[2] 2008 Q4 47.6[15] 1979
12 PATH New York City 250,400[2] 2008 Q4 13.8[16] 1908
13 Metro Rail* Los Angeles 139,700[2] 2008 Q4 17.4[17] 1990
14 Metrorail Miami 63,800[2] 2008 Q4 22[18] 1984
15 Baltimore Metro Subway* Baltimore 53,300[2] 2008 Q4 15.5[19] 1983
16 PATCO Speedline Philadelphia 36,600[2] 2008 Q4 14.2[20] 1936
17 Tren Urbano San Juan 36,800[2] 2008 Q4 10.7[21] 2004
18 RTA Rapid Transit* Cleveland 29,800[22] Third quarter of 2007 19[23] 1955
19 Staten Island Railway New York City 15,900[2] 2008 Q4 14[24] 1971
20 Detroit People Mover Detroit 4,300[2] 2008 Q4 2.9[25] 1987
21 JTA Skyway Jacksonville 1,700[2] 2008 Q4 2.5[26] 2000

[Ocklawaha]

THIS IS WHAT WE PLANNED FOR...

...AND THIS IS WHAT WE GOT! (A classic case of "I TOLD YOU SO!!")

stjr, What I said was at 10.5 miles, the Skyway costs per mile fall to the same neighborhood as LRT and BRT Quickway. This would have to make some distant future allowance for some revival of one of the original Skyway concepts. Hospital car shuttles. Yes, they were planned but never built. The COJ and I believe it was at the time "University Hospital", "St. Vincents", "Baptist" and "Memorial", all wanted lines into their facilities, and they wanted to pioneer a Skyway Ambulance for PT transport. Fact is had they built such a system, the passenger load would have been excellent. Somewhere out in these type of schemes lay the 10.5 miles. Frankly all I could imagine right now is Atlantic at the west side of the FEC, Stadium, Blue Cross, and maybe Shand's. More like 5 new miles.

There are several groups of amusement park suppliers which claim they can build the guideways for the neighborhood of $15 Million a mile, if so we'd be crazy NOT to check them out.

I believe Lake and I are not close, we are on the same page... I'm for having an up to date, workable plan to move on TOMORROW, for AMTRAK, STREETCAR, COMMUTER RAIL, SKYWAY, RIVER TAXI, BRT, BUS, CANOE, CAMEL, PACK MULE ETC... Whenever an OBAMA-MICA-BROWN opportunity crops up, we could snap into action and achieve things only imagined in the mind of a Walt Disney.


Imagine Arlington Expressway? Atlantic? Beach? San Jose? ELECTRIC TROLLEY BUS?

As it is, they came with an open checkbook and JTA has NOTHING DONE, City Hall? "Uh I think we can build a street or two... DUH!" Lake, Stephendare and Myself have done everything short of storming the JTA offices and physically throwing some folks on the street in a takeover. For better or worse, I think we're still largely ignored. It's that old Jaxson expression, "Don't confuse us with facts." Though City Hall seems much more of a lost cause then does JTA, at least JTA says they WANT to get it right. We'd love to be there and help make things happen, but right now that doesn't look highly likely.

So really Lake and I probably see eye to eye on this:

Amtrak is a given, easy take, JUST DO IT! Use a temporary station downtown until the Terminal is rebuilt.
Streetcar is something we could have already done ourselves.


http://www.youtube.com/v/hJ1EgJLwQVY&hl
This is what JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL SHOULD LOOK LIKE...Note this is only 1/3 the size of our Terminal in 1974...And FDOT/JTA think 3 tracks is enough? God Help Us!

Transportation Center at JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL - must wait for the convention center to leave.
Commuter Rail should be done AFTER Amtrak.

Skyway the HILTON STATION should already be under construction with GRANTS, the rest can wait for federal fixed guideway dollars. Lose the fares, lease the stations.

Water Taxi, could be done tomorrow, get original, dinner boats-restaurant leases, overnight lines, tourist boats, and Oh by the way, with all these creative franchises we'd have commuter boats too!
Bus, tighten the route structure, shorten the headways, create trunk lines with feeders.
BRT- HELL YES, but not a half ass, 5 block long project that restricts any transit but JTA.

OCKLAWAHA

[JaguarReign]

It should at least be expanded to the Stadium.

[stjr]

FYI, below is more $ky-high-way info I found to help the undecided to decide their poll choice above!  Note, that, OPERATIONALLY, the revenue is LESS THAN 10% of expenses causing it lose OVER $4 million EVERY YEAR. And, in just 8 years as a COMPLETE system, it has lost over $34 million of our LOCAL tax dollars.  How valuable would that be to our schools, police, fire, streets, parks, etc.?

First Coast News, July 31, 2008 at: http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=115238

Skyway Through Jacksonville Losing Millions

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The Jacksonville Transportation Authority has operated the Skyway in full service since 2000.

But did you know that it actually loses millions of dollars each year?

The JTA says most transportation systems lose money and they are standing by the futuristic Skyway.

It's the closest thing we have to Disney's famed Monorail, making eight stops in parts of downtown Jacksonville and the Southbank.

"I can ride to work each day, pay $.50. It's an incredible savings," says rider James Pontal.

But some riders say it certainly isn't a deal for taxpayers.

"Transit by its nature is never a break-even or money-making venture," JTA spokesman Mike Miller says.

Since 2000, the Skyway has lost $34,489,200.

Just last year, the Skyway collected $336,188 from passengers.

But running the Skyway cost $4,615,917, a one-year deficit of $4,279,729.

Mike Miller says monthly parking fees make up some money, but even with that extra money, the Skyway still would not generate enough revenue to make up for the cost.

"If you're not even breaking even, if you're losing money, there's no reason to keep it going," says rider Julie Williams.

But the JTA says it does take traffic off the streets. A new station near Riverside is even in the works.

"The Skyway is a very important part of the overall mobility program that we have for Jacksonville. ... No, we are not contemplating at all closing down the skyway," Miller says.

[Ocklawaha]

No news here stjr, nothing new, nothing shocking. Mike Miller is correct, except for a rare example (many in Japan) there isn't a profitable public transit project anywhere. Just like you can't justify the expenditures on Beach Blvd, or Dunn Avenue, it's not a "LOSS" it IS an investment in our future. Like roadways some get dense and become congested but if they can't be expanded (Such as in a downtown area during a big game) then we Must have an alternative. The national numbers for ALL transit systems is the farebox only recovers 25% of the expense, and drivers account for 75% of the cost of operations. The Skyway doesn't have drivers, and even if expanded to Orange Park and South Georgia, it still wouldn't. So again by means of some small expansions we actually bring down the cost of our investment per mile.

I don't like the smell of sulfur or breathing carbon monoxide, the Skyway is electric; even with it's imagined problems that still beats a bus or a highway full of parked cars.

OCKLAWAHA