Reality Check Survey: Most don't want buses

[thelakelander]

Wake up guys.  If we're seriously going to talk mass transit, people want rail.  Its been that way for a over a few decades.

Three-fourths of participants in a Reality Check First Coast survey compiled Monday said Northeast Florida residents think their commute times between home and work are fine, and 67 percent said they think work and home should be closer together.

Those two answers could present concerns for proponents of public transit in the future, but this result might present even more of a quandary: three-fourths said bus service isn't available where they live, and 60 percent said they wouldn't ride the bus if it was.

Those results, among others, were drawn from an online survey of 600 people living in Baker, Clay, Duval, Nassau, St. Johns, Flagler and Putnam counties. Participants in seven town hall meetings Monday - one in each county - added their voices to the survey.

The Reality Check effort is led by the Northeast Florida Regional Council, which has worked for over a year to collect data indicating how residents of the Jacksonville metropolitan area want their city to grow over the next 60 years.

At the WJCT television studio in Jacksonville, survey results were presented to a panel of four people - Jacksonville University professor Quinton White, Flagler County Commission Chairwoman Milissa Holland, Jacksonville City Councilman Art Graham and Jacksonville lawyer Lynn Pappas. The panel was moderated by Northeast Florida Regional Council CEO Brian Teeple.

"Everybody says they need transit and they want it, but they want it for the other guy to take it," Graham said of the results about public transit.

"There's a stigma that goes with buses. People just don't want to be on buses," he said.

Survey participants think that growth should be shepherded as it advances. About 65 percent said currently projected growth should be managed, 10 percent said all growth should be limited and 25 percent said it should be stimulated.

People indicated that development should pay for itself as it goes, but not entirely. About 70 percent said costs for infrastructure made necessary by new development should be split between government and developers, 26 percent said it should be entirely paid for by developers and 4 percent said it should all be on taxpayers.

During the meetings, participants reflected the feelings in their communities. At the Clay County town hall in Green Cove Springs, for example, one of the top concerns was that jobs would continue to land outside the county. About three out of five residents travel outside the county, primarily to Jacksonville, to work, community leaders said.

The survey information is part of the data gathering for the Reality Check First Coast on May 21 "game day" event, when 300 government, nonprofit and business leaders meet at the St. Johns County Convention Center in Renaissance Resort at World Golf Village and work in groups of 10, laying "Lego" blocks on regional maps and determining where growth should go in coming years.

Organizers expect the project to be done by fall 2010 and hope the results will yield a growth "compact" representing the will of local people for local governments to consider adopting.

Times-Union writer Jeremy Cox contributed to this report.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-03-24/story/survey_most_dont_want_buses

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As for Clay and Green Cove adding jobs, expect things to remain the same, until you embrace a different type of growth strategy (one that doesn't put all your marbles on the Outer Beltway).

[BridgeTroll]

"There's a stigma that goes with buses. People just don't want to be on buses," he said.

The article never even mentions rail as a mass transit option.  It is as if commuting via car or bus is the only option explored.

[thelakelander]

I don't think the survey mentioned rail either.

[Jason]

three-fourths said bus service isn't available where they live, and 60 percent said they wouldn't ride the bus if it was.

Those were my exact votes.


The survey said nothing about rail whatsoever.

[JaYmeLyNn]

Nobody wants to ride a bus, but some people have no choice. Including me. 

[JeffreyS]

So this article indicates 40% of people would use the bus if it was close to them that just is not a scathing indictment.

[FayeforCure]

The lakelander and jason, I filled out the survey and remember one specific question about rail.

Too bad the article didn't include the sutvey results on that question.

I tried to go back to copy and past the question, but it won't let me back in because I already filled out the survey.

Maybe someone else who hasn't completed the survey can go in and get us the exact wording of the question.

Funny thing was I didn't actually expect a question on rail, so I was pleasantly surprised!!

[stjr]

Given that this is not a statistically valid survey, I don't know what conclusions you can get from it.  I see it more as a safety valve for the public to spout off (i.e. a PR stunt).  I seriously doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on the outcome of managing growth or developing mass transit in Northeast Florida.

I took the survey and did my share of "venting" but I am not sitting around expecting anything to change. If this process is like other such initiatives, it will be just another whitewash.  We will continue to advocate for, pay for, and accommodate those that live off of growth at the expense of the rest of us.

If this survey had any value, we would not be getting ready to build the Outer Belt Way.  We would be taking the same money and investing it in our grossly underfunded schools and looking at urban core redevelopment, mass transit, and acquisition of preservation lands.  We would also begin following our land use and zoning provisions rather than making thousands of ongoing changes to it every year.

I will believe in a new approach when I actually see it!

[TheProfessor]

People will use buses once the become more reliable and better integrated into peoples needs.  There needs to be a north-south and east-west line that is always running and people can depend on. (or a rail eventually)  Once people have some trust in the buses they will be more apt. to leaving their cars.  Go to San Francisco or New York City and then you see even the middle to upper class even use the bus or even go to Gainesville and see a bus system that works.

[mtraininjax]

People will use buses once the become more reliable and better integrated into peoples needs.  There needs to be a north-south and east-west line that is always running and people can depend on. (or a rail eventually)  Once people have some trust in the buses they will be more apt. to leaving their cars.  Go to San Francisco or New York City and then you see even the middle to upper class even use the bus or even go to Gainesville and see a bus system that works.

I agree, and will say that with Jax so spread out, and with so much land still to develop, there are not people living on top of one another as there is in NYC or SF. Plus, when the JTA started, they started with buses, not rail. Our only rail "project" the Skyway, is a disaster.

There is not enough population density to warrant rail. Besides, do you want to tell the school teachers and parents that education must suffer further just so you can spend millions to build public rail. We need teachers more than we need a public rail system.

[thelakelander]

The density argument is one of the worst to make against rail.  The problem isn't density or lack of, its making sure transit connects places people want to go in an efficient manner.  To kill the argument of density, Charlotte, Atlanta, Houston and Salt Lake City are all sunbelt sprawlers (spread out just as much as Jax) that have rail lines that attract a high level of ridership.

Density isn't the issue with the skyway (which I don't consider real rail, btw).  Costs aside, the true problem is poor route selection and planning.  For most people in the area the skyway serves, there is little reason for them to use it on a regular basis.  A key to any corridor, no matter how long or short, is to make sure it actually ties in major destinations with the intended user base.  Even though Houston's line is only 7.5 miles long, it pulls in 40,000 riders a day because it ties two major employment centers (Texas Medical Center and Downtown Houston) together.  The skyway ties a bus terminal with a hard-to-access parking garage and a seldom used convention center.  In other words, a recipe for failure.

With all that said, our transit corridors should be evaluated on their own individual merit and the mode that works best for each should be implemented.  In the end, that could mean that rail is better served for the urban core and not Oakleaf or Mayport.  If so, so be it.  After all, its only one mode of what should be an integrated regional transportation network.

[Ocklawaha]

People will use buses once the become more reliable and better integrated into peoples needs.  There needs to be a north-south and east-west line that is always running and people can depend on. (or a rail eventually)  Once people have some trust in the buses they will be more apt. to leaving their cars.  Go to San Francisco or New York City and then you see even the middle to upper class even use the bus or even go to Gainesville and see a bus system that works.

Gainesville, one major University+one mall+one stadium+one airport+one downtown district... we should all be this good.


Walt Disney World, when you can't drive there, guess what?

Buses work great when the passenger is "set up" to ride. For example, nobody complains about the buses at Walt Disney World because as one comes into Lake Buena Vista or Downtown Disney, they are captive. The Disney Transportation system is one of the worlds largest, and THE largest Monorail system in ridership. But their formula is so simple, park your can and you will ride, in some area's and resorts there are choices and in others none, but go there and you will use transit. Gainesville has a similar niche market, super high density major university, a very young population and many thousands that for 4-8 years can't afford to drive or even own a car. Gainesville Transit can get to them within just a couple of stops, and moves them to a limited number of venues. It's a win - win for transit and the city.


Multi-Modal MAX Light Rail and Bus in Portland

Buses also can work just fine anywhere the passenger can see that riding the bus, is a much better use of time then to sit in the same traffic jam in a car. Another way? Making the bus a destination in and of itself, not unlike streetcar tend to do.
But how does a bus compare with a streetcar? Buses as a rule are smaller, slower, in traffic, highly local and generally diesel powered, further, they cannot be entrained easily. In transit there are exceptions to every rule, but a rail vehicle is not a bus, nor is a bus a rail vehicle. The BRT slogan: "Just Like Rail Only Cheaper," is 100% correct, however the "cheaper" is not in dollars, rather in quality per distance.

Right now some of us are working on a new concept vehicle for JTA, something you WOULD bring home to your Momma! Not only would this vehicle make the same longer commuter trips, it hopefully will serve as an office, club and conference room on wheels. We'll give you more details as we move toward showing this to JTA in person. Hopefully the public will be invited.


Some of this is missing in Jacksonville

As for rail, it needs to come in along with new Amtrak Intrastate and Interstate passenger trains, true commuter trains, streetcars, finished Skyway, multi-modal Jacksonville Terminal and water taxis. To suddenly run 60 bus routes out of the old Train Station would be insanity without a complementary "hook" or reason to be there, in other words we need to set this up for success. Buses running from an abandoned train station will do nothing. Meanwhile trains (any rail vehicle) running intracity or intercity will likewise do NOTHING unless there is a bus or other distribution system in place so the passenger can move seamlessly onto the next leg of their journey.


A "Potato Chip Truck - Thinks it's a Trolley" or a PCT-Trolley with a decent message to Jacksonville.

Jacksonville is lagging way behind the pack. We are now the largest City in North America without some form of rail or completed transit choice. We can be the next Dallas or Phoenix, or the next Macon or Mobile. The move towards first tier city is, in a large part, is up to our transportation agency's: JTA, JPA, JAA.

I think properly executed, density won't even be a factor in our transportation, today or in the future.

OCKLAWAHA

[TheProfessor]

I know in some cities the school children use public transportation rather than the school bus.  What a concept. hehe.  Growing up in Jacksonville (the 80's) I used to walk or use the school bus.  It's a shame that some people think they need to live in the suburbs and drop their kids off at school.  Parents gear their kids minds with the car mentality at a young age.  I noticed in Atlanta in the primarily Hispanic hubs (Buford Hwy) there are 3 private bus lines that charge lower fares than the MARTA because the marta is so unreliable.  (These buses have run over clients standing by the road competeting for customers, btw) Perhaps there could be an entrepreneur that will open a private bus line in Jax one day and get some good transit going.

[stjr]

I know in some cities the school children use public transportation rather than the school bus.  What a concept. hehe.  Growing up in Jacksonville (the 80's) I used to walk or use the school bus.  It's a shame that some people think they need to live in the suburbs and drop their kids off at school.  Parents gear their kids minds with the car mentality at a young age. 

I went to Hendricks Avenue Elementary in the 1960's.  We had NOT ONE school bus.  Most kids walked or rode bikes.  Some were dropped off by parents.  But those of us, living further away, took the CITY BUS everyday home from a bus stop in front of the school.  I started riding it in second grade - only accompanied by other similar aged kids.  No parents, no chaperones.  We were dropped off a block from my street and walked alone the rest of the way home.  Imagine that happening today! 

[thelakelander]

I wonder how much money the school board could save by having middle & high school students ride the city bus instead?