The Next Mayor?

[heights unknown]

audrey is awesome

Who is she?  Who was she?  Who does she hope to be?

Heights Unknown

[vicupstate]

So, first, you say:

I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility.

Then, you say:

So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

You just acknowledged that you lack any information to make the determination that the symphony is "subsidized" via its use of the TU Center, and yet you insist on trying to make that conclusion anyway. Why? LMFAO

And the rest of your argument is utter B.S. The Symphony is not the only user of the TU Center. The Center hosts concerts, performances, corporate conventions, plays, you name it, for a variety of events and promoters. I wouldn't even say the Symphony isn't even the "main" user of the TU Center, as the amount of time they utilize the building for performances is dwarfed by other uses.

The TU center brings in lots of revenue from a variety of events, I've been to several big-name concerts there, including Barry Manilow. I'm sure the City is well-paid for those, not to mention the offset against construction costs they obtained from the TU for the naming rights. In all likelihood, the Center probably turns a PROFIT.

So using that as some back-door to argue that the Symphony is thus subsidized is ludicrous. The reason the Symphony doesn't pay the entire carrying costs of the building is because they don't use it exclusively.

The City didn't intend the TU center to be a symphony hall, it was meant from the get-go to be a multi-purpose public venue. And that's what it's used for. If the Symphony got to collect all the revenues from ALL uses of the building, they'd probably be more than willing to pay the rent. But I doubt the City would want that.

The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? This is about dollars...

The City wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy, because they did an extensive planning study and realized that the economic benefit they would obtain by giving that gigantic flop back to the Navy exceeded the benefit obtained by continuing to operate it as Cecil Commerce Center, even though it would mean letting 4500 acres of industrial property fall off the tax rolls (Feds don't pay County taxes), and writing off their entire $180 million investment.

That really doesn't say much for the prospects of the Commerce Center, does it?

If the Commerce Center had been anywhere close to the success the City had all along claimed it would be, then the economic benefit of keeping it in that use would have outweighed the 12,000 jobs the Navy would bring in. But it wasn't, and it didn't.

And now the *new* plan is to let it go to private developers. So again, they're not exactly holding onto Cecil with clenched fists, are they?

The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million. 

$300+ million is still way too much. And what happened to the $190 million Delaney promised? And even that was still way too much...

As a point of comparison, the gigantic, palatial, and (unlike Duval's version) TIMELY COMPLETED, Federal Courthouse cost $84 million.

You don't see a problem here? Even if you take the original estimates, they're still hideously inflated.

The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

That's not true.

That was one of the larger ones, but there were multiple other structures in that area dating back to before 1920, which were all demolished to clear land for the phantom courthouse. I've lived here a decade, I remember them.

The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

I'm there often, and it handles the capacity fine.

But my point is: If these were swingtimes and we weren't facing massive education and infrastructure shortfalls, then I'd probably say go for it. But the way things are, I'm sorry, but the current one should suffice for the time being, and the funds should be reapplied where they're really needed. Like in schools...

Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

Are you kidding? All BJP did was build a library and the Veterans arena. The City Hall had nothing to do with BJP, neither did the TU Center. Those were built PRIOR to BJP, and would have been built anyway. WTF is your point?

And since when do you have to agree to drop $30 million on a virtually unused Equestrian Center, and $10 million on a Zoo exhibit, etc., etc., just in order to build a new public building?

I got a newsflash for you: If you want a new courthouse, you can just build a courthouse, without attaching it to some giant and poorly managed $2.25+ billion dollar spending extravaganza. Novel idea around here, I know...

The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

Did you check out the calendar I posted for the Equestrian Center? They sure aren't bringing in much....

The Symphony's budget is not huge, and goes primarily to pay the artists. I assure you whatever token payment that they MIGHT be making would not begin to cover the debt on a very expensive special use facility, no matter what percentage of the time they use it.  Sinc ethey give performances on a continual basis every year, they are a major user of the facility and probably the biggest single user of it.

I assure you that facility does not make a profit. The percentage of convention centers, performing arts complexs and the like nationwide that  turn a profit is probaly less than 1 %.  That is why the PRIVATE sector does not build them.

About 70-75% of the BJP was road improvements, the bulk of the remainder went the the BASEBALL PARK (which you haven't acknowledged ) the Veterans arena, the Main library, the branch libraries, the Equestrian center, and the courthouse.  ALL OF THOSE have been completed as promised except the courthouse. 

Construction costs, particularly steel and concrete increased tremendously between the time the vote was taken and the time many of the projects were bid.  That is the reason for the delays on the road work and to a significant dgeree, on the courthouse.  Unnecessary delays (like pulling the plug on the original contractor) produced more cost increases on the courthouse.  I think that was a mistake but that doesn't undermind the value of the BJP as a whole. 

I SAID in my post that the City Hall and T-U center WERE BEFORE the BJP.  Obvioiusly, you didn't read my original post carefully.  I said OTHER than those, the public facilities (Arena, baseball field, library, courthouse, etc. ) were in  old and outdated, which they were.   

You are conveniently forgeting that hundreds of miles of road resurfacing and sidewalks have been completed.

Without the BJP, there would not have been the private investment in DT that occurred earlier in this decade.  The developer of the Strand and Peninsula told me as much. Private money follows public investment.

The city was tempted to return Cecil field to the Navy because it (in theory) would have happened quickly.  The current redevelopment plan from the very beginning was expected to take many years.   The reality was that too many things had changed since the Navy left (development had moved closer) and Virginia Beach would have keep the decision in the courts/congress for years.     

Cecil is a tremendous asset that if properly marketed and improved would prove its worth.  Unfortunately this current administration has gutted and demoralized the JEDC.  Despite that, Cecil was on the short list for several big projects including an auto plant and a aeronautical plant.  If the city did not have Cecil, would it have even had a suitable site to market?  There are none that I know of that are of that size, that have the level of infrastructure.   

If the equestrian center holds 15 events, that can be very impactful if thousands of people show up for each one.  Do you have any information on the impact?   There are plenty of cities that invest millions in sports complexes dedicated to softball, baseball, soccer, tennis, etc.  If there wasn't a impact to economy from motel/restuarant/retail, they would not do it.  The Equestrian Center does the same thing.  The Jaguars have 8 home games in a 200mm facility?  What impact does that have?  The number of events alone does not reveal the whole picture. 

The BJP was BOND money, public debt. You don't use debt to pay operational expenses like teacher salaries, and toilet paper.

[ChriswUfGator]

So, first, you say:

I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility.

Then, you say:

So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

You just acknowledged that you lack any information to make the determination that the symphony is "subsidized" via its use of the TU Center, and yet you insist on trying to make that conclusion anyway. Why? LMFAO

And the rest of your argument is utter B.S. The Symphony is not the only user of the TU Center. The Center hosts concerts, performances, corporate conventions, plays, you name it, for a variety of events and promoters. I wouldn't even say the Symphony isn't even the "main" user of the TU Center, as the amount of time they utilize the building for performances is dwarfed by other uses.

The TU center brings in lots of revenue from a variety of events, I've been to several big-name concerts there, including Barry Manilow. I'm sure the City is well-paid for those, not to mention the offset against construction costs they obtained from the TU for the naming rights. In all likelihood, the Center probably turns a PROFIT.

So using that as some back-door to argue that the Symphony is thus subsidized is ludicrous. The reason the Symphony doesn't pay the entire carrying costs of the building is because they don't use it exclusively.

The City didn't intend the TU center to be a symphony hall, it was meant from the get-go to be a multi-purpose public venue. And that's what it's used for. If the Symphony got to collect all the revenues from ALL uses of the building, they'd probably be more than willing to pay the rent. But I doubt the City would want that.

The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? This is about dollars...

The City wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy, because they did an extensive planning study and realized that the economic benefit they would obtain by giving that gigantic flop back to the Navy exceeded the benefit obtained by continuing to operate it as Cecil Commerce Center, even though it would mean letting 4500 acres of industrial property fall off the tax rolls (Feds don't pay County taxes), and writing off their entire $180 million investment.

That really doesn't say much for the prospects of the Commerce Center, does it?

If the Commerce Center had been anywhere close to the success the City had all along claimed it would be, then the economic benefit of keeping it in that use would have outweighed the 12,000 jobs the Navy would bring in. But it wasn't, and it didn't.

And now the *new* plan is to let it go to private developers. So again, they're not exactly holding onto Cecil with clenched fists, are they?

The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million. 

$300+ million is still way too much. And what happened to the $190 million Delaney promised? And even that was still way too much...

As a point of comparison, the gigantic, palatial, and (unlike Duval's version) TIMELY COMPLETED, Federal Courthouse cost $84 million.

You don't see a problem here? Even if you take the original estimates, they're still hideously inflated.

The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

That's not true.

That was one of the larger ones, but there were multiple other structures in that area dating back to before 1920, which were all demolished to clear land for the phantom courthouse. I've lived here a decade, I remember them.

The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

I'm there often, and it handles the capacity fine.

But my point is: If these were swingtimes and we weren't facing massive education and infrastructure shortfalls, then I'd probably say go for it. But the way things are, I'm sorry, but the current one should suffice for the time being, and the funds should be reapplied where they're really needed. Like in schools...

Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

Are you kidding? All BJP did was build a library and the Veterans arena. The City Hall had nothing to do with BJP, neither did the TU Center. Those were built PRIOR to BJP, and would have been built anyway. WTF is your point?

And since when do you have to agree to drop $30 million on a virtually unused Equestrian Center, and $10 million on a Zoo exhibit, etc., etc., just in order to build a new public building?

I got a newsflash for you: If you want a new courthouse, you can just build a courthouse, without attaching it to some giant and poorly managed $2.25+ billion dollar spending extravaganza. Novel idea around here, I know...

The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

Did you check out the calendar I posted for the Equestrian Center? They sure aren't bringing in much....

The Symphony's budget is not huge, and goes primarily to pay the artists. I assure you whatever token payment that they MIGHT be making would not begin to cover the debt on a very expensive special use facility, no matter what percentage of the time they use it.  Sinc ethey give performances on a continual basis every year, they are a major user of the facility and probably the biggest single user of it.

I assure you that facility does not make a profit. The percentage of convention centers, performing arts complexs and the like nationwide that  turn a profit is probaly less than 1 %.  That is why the PRIVATE sector does not build them.

About 70-75% of the BJP was road improvements, the bulk of the remainder went the the BASEBALL PARK (which you haven't acknowledged ) the Veterans arena, the Main library, the branch libraries, the Equestrian center, and the courthouse.  ALL OF THOSE have been completed as promised except the courthouse. 

Construction costs, particularly steel and concrete increased tremendously between the time the vote was taken and the time many of the projects were bid.  That is the reason for the delays on the road work and to a significant dgeree, on the courthouse.  Unnecessary delays (like pulling the plug on the original contractor) produced more cost increases on the courthouse.  I think that was a mistake but that doesn't undermind the value of the BJP as a whole. 

I SAID in my post that the City Hall and T-U center WERE BEFORE the BJP.  Obvioiusly, you didn't read my original post carefully.  I said OTHER than those, the public facilities (Arena, baseball field, library, courthouse, etc. ) were in  old and outdated, which they were.   

You are conveniently forgeting that hundreds of miles of road resurfacing and sidewalks have been completed.

Without the BJP, there would not have been the private investment in DT that occurred earlier in this decade.  The developer of the Strand and Peninsula told me as much. Private money follows public investment.

The city was tempted to return Cecil field to the Navy because it (in theory) would have happened quickly.  The current redevelopment plan from the very beginning was expected to take many years.   The reality was that too many things had changed since the Navy left (development had moved closer) and Virginia Beach would have keep the decision in the courts/congress for years.     

Cecil is a tremendous asset that if properly marketed and improved would prove its worth.  Unfortunately this current administration has gutted and demoralized the JEDC.  Despite that, Cecil was on the short list for several big projects including an auto plant and a aeronautical plant.  If the city did not have Cecil, would it have even had a suitable site to market?  There are none that I know of that are of that size, that have the level of infrastructure.   

If the equestrian center holds 15 events, that can be very impactful if thousands of people show up for each one.  Do you have any information on the impact?   There are plenty of cities that invest millions in sports complexes dedicated to softball, baseball, soccer, tennis, etc.  If there wasn't a impact to economy from motel/restuarant/retail, they would not do it.  The Equestrian Center does the same thing.  The Jaguars have 8 home games in a 200mm facility?  What impact does that have?  The number of events alone does not reveal the whole picture. 

The BJP was BOND money, public debt. You don't use debt to pay operational expenses like teacher salaries, and toilet paper.

Look...

1: The symphony isn't the exclusive user of the TU Center, and isn't even the 'main' user of the TU Center. It wasn't built exclusively for them, and isn't used exclusively by them.

So exactly why the hell would they pay for all of it? Your argument makes ZERO sense.

I'm sure the SO would be just as happy renting space in the Florida Theatre on an as-needed basis, if it came to that. The City made the decision to build the TU Center for a variety of reasons, not just the SO.

2: Cecil is deadweight and not a tremendous asset. It is a real cost to taxpayers, loses millions annually, and cost us hundreds of millions just to get it where it could lose millions annually. It's a boondoggle.

3: 15 events at an equestion center that only holds <1000 people isn't paying any bills in this city...hate to break it to you. It's not like it's a stadium that seats 100k people, your comparison is pretty silly.

4: I'm not conveniently forgetting street resurfacing or whatnot, but that's routine maintenance and would have happened anyway. Where are our 7 new interchanges, and our new commuter rail, again?

Exactly.

5: If you have such an issue with me rebutting the portions of your post dealing with the outdated public buildings that were, with the exception of the library, all replaced BEFORE the BJP, then why the heck did you throw it in there? So now you're acknowledging they have nothing to do with the discussion, which was my point to begin with....

So I guess we agree on something!

6: I haven't refused to acknowledge the Veterans' Arena, I mentioned it earlier as the only thing of substance to be completed for all this money. I don't see what your point about the baseball stadium is, we didn't really need a new one when the old Wolfson Park was more than adequate. If you can't fill a smaller one, why build a bigger one?

And I'm sorry, but Cecil is a complete disaster, the Equestrian Center is a total waste, the baseball park is a total waste, the Veterans' Arena I've already said is probably useful, but the library money would have been better spent renovating the original library, the courhouse hasn't even started yet and we're down how many millions, 5 of the 7 new interchanges have been scrapped for lack of funding, and we don't have any mass transit improvements for the $75mil allocated to that.

So let's do some math:

For $2.2 BILLION dollars, we have:

-A new library
-A new arena
-2 out of 7 interchanges
-An equestrian center that almost nobody uses and costs $$$$ to operate
-A Commerce Center that almost nobody uses and costs $$$$ to operate

We got almost no value for the money there...

[BridgeTroll]

And I'm sorry, but Cecil is a complete disaster, the Equestrian Center is a total waste, the baseball park is a total waste,

Cecil is a tremendous asset, the equestrian center is a gem, and the ball park is one of the best in the nation.  Clearly money well spent... IMO.

[ChriswUfGator]

And I'm sorry, but Cecil is a complete disaster, the Equestrian Center is a total waste, the baseball park is a total waste,

Cecil is a tremendous asset, the equestrian center is a gem, and the ball park is one of the best in the nation.  Clearly money well spent... IMO.

In the specific case of the baseball park (which I do have to admit is pretty nice), how does that bring any new fans to the Suns? The same people who liked them before are going to like them now. So I guess I have a hard time understanding why, when every time I went to the old one it wasn't full, we needed a new bigger (and much more expensive) one...

I guess maybe we are using different measuring sticks on this stuff? I guess I just like to see tax dollars applied in a method that provides the most benefit to the greatest number of people.

But the equestrian center with its whopping 1 event a month, and our multi-hundred-million-dollar Commerce Center with it's whopping 6 tenants, is certainly money that could have been much better spent elsewhere.

[BridgeTroll]

I guess maybe we are using different measuring sticks on this stuff?

Of course we are... everybody does!  One person would spend all the money to gather up the homeless and provide em all new diggs... another would add 2 lanes to every highway and road in jax while another would lay rails with streetcars and commuter trains everywhere.

The difference here is all the projects mentioned were in the BJP... we voted for it!  We can agree that some projects did not get done or are way over budget but these other items were part of the ...plan...

This city could use more planning if you ask me...

[hillary supporter]

glorious johnson

[cityimrov]

There's a lot of interesting thoughts in this forum.  Is anyone here planning to run for mayor?  You can actually make a difference, be in charge, and actually have a chance to change things. 

[blizz01]

Dang.  Every time this thread goes to the top I get all anxious thinking that there might be some new development happening like right NOW........)sigh(

[mtraininjax]

Hopefully no one dumb enough to claim they are going to run the city like a business.....

[Cliffs_Daughter]

Hopefully no one dumb enough to claim they are going to run the city like a business.....

Considering the way businesses are being run and falling apart lately, that's an understatement.

[heights unknown]

Someone with balls, someone with a focused vision, someone that's not afraid of viable/legitimate/necessary change, someone who knows how to plan and plan well, someone who has the citizens and the city's future in mind when planning, someone who definitely is not umbilically attached to the "good ole boys" network and who can think on an international and world basis. And it may not stop at these traits.  Wishful dreaming but I think we need someone of this caliber.

Heights Unknown