Dredging the St Johns

[BridgeTroll]

A massive dredging project will begin soon.  The new carrier will require deeper water, the ports will require deeper water.  The main channel will be dredged from 40' to 45' from the mouth of the river all the way to Talleyrand.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-29/story/study_dredging_would_make_river_saltier

Study: Dredging would make St. Johns saltier
Researchers not sure how much damage the extra salt would do

[Jason]

That's the god and the bad of it.  We need the dredging to help maintain the economic benefits of the port and Navy base, but at the risk of further damaging the ecology of the river...

[jtwestside]

That's the god and the bad of it.  We need the dredging to help maintain the economic benefits of the port and Navy base, but at the risk of further damaging the ecology of the river...

This is always the struggle no matter what mankind does. Just like any other animal we are trying to insure our survival on the planet. The difference is that we have the intellect to realize the impact of our choices on our surroundings. My problem with the environmentalist view is that it is that mankind is inherently evil. If we were living as the cavemen did we would still be leaving a "foot print" and the ultimate end game would be for there to be no man.

At the other extreme you have the expand at any cost group. Who feels that the world owes them a living.

Since we do have the ability to recognize our impact we should understand what the impact of the dredging will be. But the port is vital to Jacksonville's growth and possibly survival as a major city in the next 25-50 years. Unless a staggering environmental impact can be shown or an alternative given (another problem I have with environmental groups is no viable alternatives offered, only opposition) I think the dredging should go forward.

[Jason]

Exactly.  I'm with you as well, dredge it!

[BridgeTroll]

Most cities have a natural resource that must be exploited to ensure prosperity.  Be it a harbor, a river, a lake, mountain pass, minerals, oil or gas, farmland or strategic transportation point.  The key is to minimize the impact while continuing to use the resource.  This includes keeping it clean, cleaning up when the riches are exhausted, and caring for the creatures who are impacted.  The St Johns is Jacksonville's natural resource... we must use it wisely...

[reednavy]

As of right now, I honestly think more salt is the least of our concerns. Trash, half sunken boats, and Seminole County are more important.

[Joe]

Does anyone know where they are depositing the dredged soil? Are they going to keep on filling in Bartram Island (the long skinning island that the Dames Point Bridge crosses over) or is it going somewhere else?

I also agree with previous comments that increased salinity isn't a huge problem. With central Florida's recent decision to tap the St. John's for water, the salinity will be out of our control! The St. John's has one of the shallowest grades in the world (probably not the correct terminology) so if Orlando sucks their end of the river dry, we could be looking at an ESTUARY rather than a river.

Sure, the article says dredging is worse, but that's presuming X number of gallons taken by Orlando. What happens when Orlando takes 3 times that much, and/or we have an extremely dry year. A tidal estuary to St Johns County, that's what.

[kitester]

Someone asked where the spoils might go. I think that the north side of the north jetty is being considered for some of the sand and rock. That could potentially make Huguenot Park much larger. Can you imagine a half mile wide beach at low tide?

[CS Foltz]

Gemtlemen...............Rick Ferrin of the Dames Point Facility has stated that "If dredging causes problems, the dredging will be stopped"! Now doesn't that make you feel better.............I know I do!

[Ocklawaha]

At somewhere between 4,000 and 12,000 Gallons Per Second (depending on month and day) flow rate, I would think even with tidal action, this river will always flush out the last 20 miles or so to the sea. The real booger here is our port doesn't need 42 feet, we need 60+ at least to Blount Island and maybe 50 to Talleyrand.

As far as expansion is concerned, imagine a tunnel (a short tunnel) between Dames Point and Bartram Island. If we keep raising the elevation of the island, I could forsee another booming port location.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Maybe they should have just dredged to begin with rather than using eminant domain to build the Dames Point Facility Ock?  I mean it doesn't get much easier than building another Island and if they had any sense, they would construct a causeway wide enough not only for rail but vehicle traffic also! But hay...........what do I know? I am just a dumb taxpayer!

[Ocklawaha]

Blount Island was a great move for the Port really. The huge plot of land was basically unused and it would serve our port for years to come... Until the Marines stormed the bulkheads!  The shame is that the port didn't buy the Yellow Bluff peninsular south of the historic Confederate Fort in New Berlin. Since we're dreaming here, it's also a shame they didn't get the Trout River, and other small creeks and rivers deepened during WWII, which would have had the effect of pushing Hecksher Drive about 1/4 mile north.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock............I agree! The only problem I can see is this should have been something that was planned for right after WWII! City had no vision back then either I guess!

[stjr]

We need to realize the salinity level of the river determines whether it is a living, functioning ecosystem, or just a piece of "dead meat".  Excess salinity will kill off the fish stocks and the plant life along the river's borders.  How much is the river the essence of what Jax is?  Kill the river and we kill the soul of this City and region.

Two wrongs don't make a right.  If the south Florida withdrawals are bad for the sustainability of the river, they shouldn't do it.  And, if the dredging is bad, they need to reconsider that too.  We need to find the right balance between economic development and our environment but completely sacrificing the St. Johns is not acceptable.

If the land was more visible, I question if the port would have had the relatively easy time they had building the Mitsui facility at Dames Point.  That land was not only historic but the hundreds of giant, centuries old oaks that  forested that land was another precious remnant of Old Florida now replaced with a hundred plus acres of flat asphalt.

I'm not against the port but neither should they be able to rape and pillage the landscape at any costs.  We need to accept that at some point the port is limited by our geography and live with it.  I think we are approaching our limits.  Do we want Jax to someday look like New York harbor?

P.S. Salinity isn't the only issue with dredging.  The flow of the river and stirring up a 100 years of heavy metals and other pollutants and silt from the river bottom are also issues.  This dredging would actually go into the "bedrock" as I recall.

[Ocklawaha]

How much is the river the essence of what Jax is?

Jax is only here because this is where the European settlers operated a boat service across the river. Interesting point, but doesn't that make waterborne transport just as much, if not more, the essence of the City?

Two wrongs don't make a right? 

You are assuming?

That land was not only historic but the hundreds of giant, centuries old oaks that  forested that land was another precious remnant of Old Florida now replaced with a hundred plus acres of flat asphalt.

So were the battles fought over that very same ground, the records show no less then 12 large field pieces in the Confederate fort at Yellow Bluff, the firing and sinking of at least one US ship (USS Alice Price+tow).

So you are right it is another precious remnant of Old Florida, but no one (except me maybe) wants to relive that war. We have our preserve and we have saved the fort both of which will take care of the trees and salt marshes. Meanwhile, Jacksonville will be well cared for with a deep water harbor and another 5+ miles of wharfs.

I'm not against the port but neither should they be able to rape and pillage.

Who have they raped? What have they pillaged? Jaxport has actually cleaned up our waterfront while simultaneously expanding the port and our job pool.

Do we want Jax to someday look like New York harbor?

YES! We should have so much traffic at our port. Imagine the development and quality jobs that would create. Hell we could even preserve a few tree's downtown and call it Battery Park II. Do you have any idea of what was on our waterfront before Jaxport? These guys should wear superhero capes, but public memory is very short.

As for reaching our limits, sorry, JACKSONVILLE IS ALL CITY - NO LIMITS. I say all of this because what you are fighting is far greater then Jaxport, COJ, or even Florida, the plans for our port on another entire level are staggering. At least we should get as much done locally as possible before the other shoe falls.

OCKLAWAHA