Replace Outer Beltway with New Link To Gainesville, I-75, Tampa

[reednavy]

More development in Clay = hardship for us in Duval County, especially Mandarin, Yukon, and vicinity.

[jandar]

Push the bridge north of Green Cove Springs, not south. This would alleviate traffic in clay/duval congestion areas.

BTW Reed, more development, if it keeps residents in county for work is a good thing for Duval. most people in Clay commute daily, if they stayed in county, it would help Duval's traffic issues, just like building a bridge around Fleming Island over to I95 through fruit cove would help Mandarin traffic from St Johns County residents as well.

[stjr]

Push the bridge north of Green Cove Springs, not south. This would alleviate traffic in clay/duval congestion areas.

BTW Reed, more development, if it keeps residents in county for work is a good thing for Duval. most people in Clay commute daily, if they stayed in county, it would help Duval's traffic issues, just like building a bridge around Fleming Island over to I95 through fruit cove would help Mandarin traffic from St Johns County residents as well.

Jandar, this logic is what feeds the cancer of urban sprawl.  Let's build interstates through and around every county in the country so any job can go anywhere.

Most people moved to Clay and St. Johns to work in Jax, not those counties.  Put jobs in those counties, and the next wave will repeat your logic and demand to live and work in even further outlying counties rather than commute to Clay and St. Johns.  Then those outlying counties will want their own interstate highways.  Where does it end?  When everything is paved over and developed? 

If people in St. Johns and Clay want to live near where most jobs are, they should move into existing developed areas in Duval closer to existing work or accept the commute they bargained for by moving so far out.  We need to accept that some areas and counties need to forever remain rural and green, not suburban/urban and asphalt/concrete.  If someone moves to a rural county, they should accept that lifestyle, not try and change it into something else that destroys the very thing that attracted them in the first place.

[Ocklawaha]

The Hibernia - Greenbriar bridge is about 1/2 way between the Buckman and the Shand's.  Stjr, I think we all agree that SPRAWL that Jandar is promoting would be a disaster.  I think I understand his viewpoint though, for any kid in love with a city, that city will be or should be, "the biggest", "the best," "the most"... etc. I think Jacksonville is the best city of opportunity in the USA, but that shouldn't blind us to it's faults, rather, we should fight all the harder to make it even better.


OCKLAWAHA

[jandar]

Excuse me? WTF am I promoting sprawl?

Hell F*** no. But unlike the idiots on this board they think that everyone wants to live on a rail line or in a city with buses every where, there will always be a suburb next to a city. Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM. I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.

Forcing the bridge around hibernia would alleviate existing traffic. You want to bitch about clay traffic being bad? Guess what, its duval and st johns traffic as well on 295. Get over it.

Adding the bridge opens a new route. Its the same ole issues from everyone in Duval (and Im 4th generation westsider so eff off). Block clay traffic, keep them in county for daring to have a yard with room and not build on top of each other. Eff them for wanting to have a much better (by a long shot) school system for their kids.

No, instead, you think development is bad. Its only bad when it is out of control. It's going to happen eventually, why not control it? Stop being an ostrich.

Building the beltway south of Green Cove opens land for suburbs, building it north of Green Cove doesn't. Its that simple.

BTW, if not for all of those workers that commute from St Johns and Clay, there would not be half the higher tech higher ed jobs that Jacksonville loves to boast about. Go ask your co-workers. A good 25-40% depending upon the industry work in Jax and live in Clay/St Johns/Baker/Nassau or farther out.

There will always be alternate routes for going places. I don't touch I95 or I295 when I go to St Augustine. I take SR 16 over. If I go to Starke/Gainesville, I take SR16. If I go to Orlando/Mt Dora, I sometimes take US17. To get into Jax, I have to take Blanding, US17 or Chaffee. There is no other route. Two of those routes are overcrowded.

Now, instead of working with Clay and St Johns Counties, you insist on being an arrogant big brother and state how dare they build an outerbeltway and not consult us? I say go for it. Duval has been shitting on Clay and St Johns for too long.

[Lunican]

Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM. I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.

Maybe the connection hasn't been made, but the more dense and sustainable areas of town we have, the more rural areas we have left over.

[tufsu1]

Its not about whether or not you would prefer to use a train or a road, but whether or not there is a good enough reason for all of us to pitch in and build a huge highway

Not that I am in favor of the Outer Beltway....but you do know that it wouldn't be built with tax dollars, right?

If the road is built, it wll be funded with private capital...and that outlay will be repaid over years (with profit) by users of the roadway.

Ignoring other sprawl costs (which admittedly may be high), taxpayers would actually pay less because we wouldn't be paying for replacement of the Shandfs Bridge.

[thelakelander]

Here are my problems with the proposed PPP aspect of the Outer Beltway.

1. A similar privately funded road project just failed in South Carolina.  Who will be responsible for the road and its continued maintenance if the PPP fails?

2. If the road is a success, who will pay for the upgrading of the infrastructure needed to feed drivers into it?  After all, nothing in life is "free".

3. Last but not least, if this thing is a needed as people claim it is and money is to be made, it would have been built by now.  Because no one from the private sector is jumping to finance this thing, something tells me its not all peaches and cream and some of the initial estimates were perhaps.......cooked.  Thus again, when it fails, who will be responsible for it?  If it falls on the back of the taxpayer, is this something we want to see our money spent on instead of addressing real priorities?

[stjr]

Excuse me? WTF am I promoting sprawl?

In a word, yes.  Jandar, your attitude is exactly the problem.  You say you don't support urban sprawl but then you turn around and advocate for exactly what causes it.  Cussing out everyone who disagrees with you sure isn't going to make for a convincing argument, whatever your position, to boot.

... unlike the idiots on this board they think that everyone wants to live on a rail line or in a city with buses every where, there will always be a suburb next to a city.

This isn't about a suburb next to a city, its about suburbs next to suburbs next to still more suburbs - and where does it all end?  Rail comes up when it becomes impossible or unsustainable to keep building roads like the Outer Beltway.  Many feel we are now at that point.  You are RESPECTFULLY entitled to your opinion.

Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM.

Gun shots and loud music?  You think Clay and St. Johns are immune?  You think all 800+ square miles of Duval County have those problems?  You are just highlighting how desperate you are to justify your position with a nonsense argument like this.

I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.

You want stars, no light pollution, and some wild animals.  How long do you think that will be available to you when an interstate beltway comes through your neck of the woods?  Not long.  Just check anywhere around I-295 and see your future. (P.S. Not much creates more light pollution than road and interchange lighting.)

Forcing the bridge around hibernia would alleviate existing traffic. You want to bitch about clay traffic being bad? Guess what, its duval and st johns traffic as well on 295. Get over it.

Jandar, why the persecution complex?  The Outer Beltway goes through three counties.  Opposition comes from all three.  Clay does appear to be the head cheerleader for this road which puts them front and center.  Opponents claim Clay and those supporting this road in Duval and St. Johns are clinging to false promises and hopes regarding its benefits.  Existing Clay traffic issues aren't being ignored.  Some of us believe that mass transit is the far better solution.

The Outer Beltway relieving existing traffic is a red herring.  It really won't for long, if ever, improve traffic anywhere.  In short order, it will make traffic in all three counties far worse as more development pops up along its path. As you note, just look to I-295 for proof.  It sure hasn't done much to relieve traffic, just created more of it through support of increased sprawl.

Adding the bridge opens a new route. Its the same ole issues from everyone in Duval (and Im 4th generation westsider so eff off). Block clay traffic, keep them in county for daring to have a yard with room and not build on top of each other. Eff them for wanting to have a much better (by a long shot) school system for their kids.

No one is trying to block Clay traffic.  30+ years ago, no one in Clay was blocked.  Clay traffic is blocked because Clay has over promoted sprawl in its county.  The Outer Beltway is just more of the same.  Want to unblock traffic jams?  Don't build more roads, build more mass transit.  We are near the limit on roads.  That is part of the point here.  It's time to do something different.  Road building just perpetuates the existing problems.

This isn't about Clay schools unless you are interested in talking about how overcrowded they will become when they can't keep up with development brought by the Outer Beltway.

No, instead, you think development is bad. Its only bad when it is out of control. It's going to happen eventually, why not control it? Stop being an ostrich.

Development is out of control so it is bad.  We agree.  Controlled development?  You are dreaming.  Florida and its local jurisdictions, including Clay, Duval, and St. Johns, have never controlled development and there is no sign that change is in sight.  Those woods behind you will one day be rezoned for residential tract housing or commercial complexes to feed into that beltway you support and no one will be able to stop it.  Your only chance to control development is to not feed the beast by building roads such as the Outer Beltway.

Building the beltway south of Green Cove opens land for suburbs, building it north of Green Cove doesn't. Its that simple.

The Outer Beltway will open land for suburbs everywhere inside of it and a good bit outside (by at least several miles) of its pathway.  The road will be dozens of miles long and encompass far more than just Green Cove Springs and cross through three counties.  So, it's not so simple.

BTW, if not for all of those workers that commute from St Johns and Clay, there would not be half the higher tech higher ed jobs that Jacksonville loves to boast about. Go ask your co-workers. A good 25-40% depending upon the industry work in Jax and live in Clay/St Johns/Baker/Nassau or farther out.

People that work in Jax and live in St. Johns and Clay are able to do so because we subsidize and support them  with projects like I-295, I-95, 9B, JTB, and other major roads.  Without those roads, people would be demanding to live closer in to avoid the traffic on the original rural 2 lane roads long since replaced.  I would also suggest that none of your subjects would be living in Clay and St. Johns if Jax didn't create the jobs, not the other way around.

There will always be alternate routes for going places. I don't touch I95 or I295 when I go to St Augustine. I take SR 16 over. If I go to Starke/Gainesville, I take SR16. If I go to Orlando/Mt Dora, I sometimes take US17. To get into Jax, I have to take Blanding, US17 or Chaffee. There is no other route. Two of those routes are overcrowded.

Transportation is built based on how we collectively move about, not you, yourself, alone.  No one is going to build a road or transportation system to suit just you.  If you don't like traffic on I-95 and I-295, why don't you use those alternate routes you say you have and stop complaining.

Now, instead of working with Clay and St Johns Counties, you insist on being an arrogant big brother and state how dare they build an outerbeltway and not consult us? I say go for it. Duval has been shitting on Clay and St Johns for too long.

No one is being arrogant or dumping on your home county.  If anything, we are trying to support the way of life you claim to have and love.  The environment, traffic, and other sprawl issues don't stop at county lines or other political boundaries.  Everyone in NE Florida is in this together.  You are acting as if you are living on an island, immune from all that goes around you.  Sorry, that just isn't so.

My bet is, if the Outer Beltway gets built and ruins your "rural" lifestyle, as I predict, you will be the first to move out of Clay.  Was the Westside's development in connection with the building of I-295 a factor in why you left the Westside after 4 generations in pursuit of "rural" Clay County?

Tufsu, as to the road being privately built, it doesn't matter who pays for the road.  The fact is, if it gets built, more road congestion will follow it soon after and all taxpayers will be asked to pay for that creating a taxpayer subsidy for the Outer Beltway's consequences.  And, additional taxpayer subsidies for the ensuing urban sprawl development (such as utility and storm water infrastructure, feeder roads, schools, police, fire, courts, public services, etc.) won't be coming from the road builders, the developers, or solely all those new neighbors surrounding Jandar.

[thelakelander]

When does it stop?  That's a good question.  This is essentially our third loop.

1. Edgewood/Cassat & University
2. I-295/9A
3. Outer Beltway?

Does anyone have the estimated costs for the following?

1. Tolls.  Greenville's South Connector is struggling with $2 tolls.  What will be the Outer Beltways?
2. Connector streets.  Who pays for all of these new roads planned to tie into Outer Beltway interchanges, such as the 218 bypass?

[tufsu1]

Its not about whether or not you would prefer to use a train or a road, but whether or not there is a good enough reason for all of us to pitch in and build a huge highway

Not that I am in favor of the Outer Beltway....but you do know that it wouldn't be built with tax dollars, right?

If the road is built, it wll be funded with private capital...and that outlay will be repaid over years (with profit) by users of the roadway.

Ignoring other sprawl costs (which admittedly may be high), taxpayers would actually pay less because we wouldn't be paying for replacement of the Shandfs Bridge.

TUFSU.

what a bunch of naive nonsense.

this from your vast transportation knowledge?

[tufsu1]

as to your questions Lake...

the info. I've seen says that tolls will be around $0.20 per mile...which means travelling the whole 45+ mile length will cost about $10 (with a $1 surcharge for the river crossing).

any future new road (such as 218 extneion in Clay or CR 2209 extension in St. Johns) that could connect with the Outer Beltway would be funded by developers or local tax dollars (or a combination of both).

[stjr]

Lake, your sample interchange highlights another issue and expense.  This interchange is typical of the built "on the cheap" diamond intersections favored by FDOT and JTA, complete with traffic congesting traffic lights.

As it has inevitably happened everywhere else, when the cheaply built interchange needs major upgrades (added lanes, longer turn lanes, flyovers, more land, etc.) upon traffic buildup over time, who pays for the tens and hundreds of millions for this?  Toll payers/road operator?  Or taxpayers?

Also, for non-ez-pay users, how are tolls collected at the exits?  Is room and expense needed for manned toll booths?

[stjr]

as to your questions Lake...

the info. I've seen says that tolls will be around $0.20 per mile...which means travelling the whole 45+ mile length will cost about $10 (with a $1 surcharge for the river crossing).

any future new road (such as 218 extneion in Clay or CR 2209 extension in St. Johns) that could connect with the Outer Beltway would be funded by developers or local tax dollars (or a combination of both).

Jax taxpayers revolted over 25 cent tolls.  I can't imagine how conservative, anti-tax Clay county will react to $10 to $11 tolls.

Tufsu, so how will interchange costs be allocated between the Beltway and the taxpayer owners of the connecting roads?  If, as you say, the Beltway is truly not at expense to taxpayers, ALL interchange costs should be paid by the Beltway operator since there would be no interchange without the Beltway.

[Fallen Buckeye]

Excuse me? WTF am I promoting sprawl?

Hell F*** no. But unlike the idiots on this board they think that everyone wants to live on a rail line or in a city with buses every where, there will always be a suburb next to a city. Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM. I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.

Forcing the bridge around hibernia would alleviate existing traffic. You want to bitch about clay traffic being bad? Guess what, its duval and st johns traffic as well on 295. Get over it.

Adding the bridge opens a new route. Its the same ole issues from everyone in Duval (and Im 4th generation westsider so eff off). Block clay traffic, keep them in county for daring to have a yard with room and not build on top of each other. Eff them for wanting to have a much better (by a long shot) school system for their kids.

No, instead, you think development is bad. Its only bad when it is out of control. It's going to happen eventually, why not control it? Stop being an ostrich.

Building the beltway south of Green Cove opens land for suburbs, building it north of Green Cove doesn't. Its that simple.

BTW, if not for all of those workers that commute from St Johns and Clay, there would not be half the higher tech higher ed jobs that Jacksonville loves to boast about. Go ask your co-workers. A good 25-40% depending upon the industry work in Jax and live in Clay/St Johns/Baker/Nassau or farther out.

There will always be alternate routes for going places. I don't touch I95 or I295 when I go to St Augustine. I take SR 16 over. If I go to Starke/Gainesville, I take SR16. If I go to Orlando/Mt Dora, I sometimes take US17. To get into Jax, I have to take Blanding, US17 or Chaffee. There is no other route. Two of those routes are overcrowded.

Now, instead of working with Clay and St Johns Counties, you insist on being an arrogant big brother and state how dare they build an outerbeltway and not consult us? I say go for it. Duval has been shitting on Clay and St Johns for too long.

Brother I completely understand about wanting to live in a place with room to spread your legs. I grew up in a place where we had to drive half an hour to get to the nearest "city" which only had about 30,000 people in it. But you have to understand that how we plan out these roads and such sets the stage for how the land will be used in the future. If we criss cross Clay and St. Johns with these highways eventually that open space you talk about will be filled in a way that destroys the lifestyle you are talking about.

Look at Southern California as an example. All this area that was once a desert is miles and miles of suburbs and freeways. When my parents lived in the Inland Empire area (East of LA around San Bernadino/Riverside) they would drive a couple of hours to work in terrible traffic despite all of the expressways built with 6 lanes each way. The air quality was awful, and there was very little wildlife like you talk about. What little remaining green space there was constantly in danger of being developed or catching fire, and in fact the orange groves directly behind their house became more houses shortly after they moved away. Even though they were in a suburban area there were still the issues with crime and noise pollution that you'd find in a city. Then there was always a drought in effect due to everyone wanting to grow a green lawn in the middle of a desert and have their own little slice of green to call their own. We do not want Clay and St. Johns counties to turn into Southern California's endless suburbs. Believe me it's miserable.

It's not that Duval county is trying to thumb their noses at Clay or St. Johns counties. It's a matter of how can we make NE Florida a better place to live and work as a whole. If we plan out the basic foundations of our communities such as roadways in a smart and sustainable way, we can improve the quality of life for city folks and country folks and those in between for years to come.

That said I say either we streamline 301 or build rail to better connect the Jax to Gainesville for just the reasons already stated. No need to reinvent the wheel. Then abandon the outer beltway idea in its current form except maybe the parts where Cecil is connected to I-10 and the part where the Shands bridge is rebuilt. Then we focus on promoting smart urban infill and improving transportation within the city and existing suburbs. I am self-professed country bumpkin living in Riverside (in Jax not CA) and loving it...which goes to show that living in an urban environment does not have to mean sacrificing quality of life.