The current sad state of skyway stations and the system itself on weekends

[Coolyfett]

So the Stations have become worse than they were? Escalators broken? I have seen that before, but never more than one. Sad sad sad, well what can you do, what can you say. The city leaders are pro automobile and pro road building. My optimism is slowly slowly dying for the Skyway and the potential it has/had because the powers that be don't want to help it.

[Charles Hunter]

Until (unless) the City Council, by super majority vote (11 ayes, instead of the normal 10), changes the BJP, it includes $100 million for rapid transit right of way.  We are not "sitting on nearly $100 million set aside for rapid transit" that could be spent on a street car system, or commuter rail, or any of those things.

Although details have still not been released (or did I miss it?), the early reports are that the Mayor wants to take some or all of that $100 million for other projects - perhaps near the port.  I think the political chances of getting Council to remove the "right of way" restriction on that $100 million are in the range of "negligible to nil".

And to return to the title topic of this thread (sorta), other than electricity, would extensions down Riverside to Blue Cross, the Southbank to San Marco, and east to the Sports Complex, increase operating costs?  How much more system could the current command center and staff handle?  (I'm speaking of operating costs, of course there would be capital costs of track and new cars and stations.)

[thelakelander]

Until (unless) the City Council, by super majority vote (11 ayes, instead of the normal 10), changes the BJP, it includes $100 million for rapid transit right of way.  We are not "sitting on nearly $100 million set aside for rapid transit" that could be spent on a street car system, or commuter rail, or any of those things.

If that's what it takes, consider that possibly being a good plan.  As long as its there and the council has the option of slightly changing the terminology, its a stronger possibility than dealing with the Feds.

Although details have still not been released (or did I miss it?), the early reports are that the Mayor wants to take some or all of that $100 million for other projects - perhaps near the port.  I think the political chances of getting Council to remove the "right of way" restriction on that $100 million are in the range of "negligible to nil".

We'll see.  Where there's a will, there's a way.  I never thought we would get JTA to alter the original BRT plan.  Three years later, I now see my initial assessment was wrong.  Nevertheless, at this point, the main goal should be to keep Peyton from stealing the money to use on other over budget BJP projects (ie. courthouse and roads).

And to return to the title topic of this thread (sorta), other than electricity, would extensions down Riverside to Blue Cross, the Southbank to San Marco, and east to the Sports Complex, increase operating costs?  How much more system could the current command center and staff handle?  (I'm speaking of operating costs, of course there would be capital costs of track and new cars and stations.)

The skyway is overbuilt.  The command center is built to handle a much larger system.  The increased ridership from short extensions would probably more than cover any potential increase in O&M costs.

[thelakelander]

The skyway's O&M costs are significantly higher than a typical streetcar, light rail or commuter rail system.  Nearly $4 million a year for a small 2.5 mile line.

Skyway Operations required a transfer from Bus Operations of $414,662 above and beyond the budgeted subsidy of $3,414,457 in order to breakeven for the year.

http://jaxpolitics.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/city-finances-challenged/

I'll post the O&M costs of some other systems for comparison's sake later tonight.

O&M costs for various streetcar systems across the United States:

Portland Streetcar
Length: 5.6 miles
Frequency: 12-15 minute headways
Operating Budget: $4.9 million (FY 2008)
Ridership: 11,800 weekday; 3.6 million annual


Seattle South Lake Union
Length: 1.3 miles
Frequency: 15 minute headways
Operating Budget: $2 million (FY 2008)
Ridership: 1,780 daily (July 2008); 330,000 annual projected (2008)


Tacoma Link Streetcar
Length: 1.6 miles
Frequency: 10 minute headways
Operating Budget: $2.5 million (FY 2008)
Ridership: 2,925 average weekday; 920,000 annual


Little Rock River Rail Streetcar
Length: 3.4 miles
Frequency: 25 minute headways
Operating Budget: $650,000 (FY 2007)
Ridership: 170,000 annual (2007)


Tampa TECO Streetcar
Length: 2.4 miles
Frequency: 15 minute headways
Operating Budget: $2.5 million (FY 2008)
Ridership: 1,082 weekday; 440,000 annual (2007)


Kenosha Streetcar
Length: 1.9 miles
Frequency: 15 minute headways
Operating Budget: $335,000 (FY 2008)
Ridership: 170 weekday; 62,000 annual (2007)


Memphis Streetcar
Length: 12 miles
Frequency: 5-10 minute headways
Operating Budget: $3.9 million (FY 2005)
Ridership: 1,031,168 annual


New Orleans Canal Street Streetcar
Length: 5.5 miles
Frequency: 5-10 minute headways
Operating Budget: $7.0 million
Ridership: 31,400 daily


Columbus Streetcar (proposed)
Initial Length: 2.8 miles
Frequency: 10 - 15 minute headways
Operating Budget: $4.5 million
Ridership: 6,600 weekday (projected)


Tucson Streetcar (proposed)
Initial Length: 3.6 miles
Frequency: 10 - 20 minute headways
Operating Budget: $4.5 million
Ridership: 4,200 daily (projected)


Austin Streetcar (proposed)
Initial Length: 4.4 miles
Frequency: 10 minute headways
Operating Budget: $4.5 million
Ridership: 32,200 daily (2030 projected)


Cincinnati Streetcar (proposed)
Initial Length: 3.9 miles
Frequency: 10 - 20 minute headways
Operating Budget: $2.0 - $2.7 million
Ridership: 3,700 to 5,600 daily (2010 projected)

[civil42806]

I'm one of those guys that finds the People Mover a Major eyesore, hate the way it dominates the landscape an shadows the ground, the pillars are particularly offensive.  My vote is for High explosives and to remove it from the city scape.

[Steve]

I'm one of those guys that finds the People Mover a Major eyesore, hate the way it dominates the landscape an shadows the ground, the pillars are particularly offensive.  My vote is for High explosives and to remove it from the city scape.

If it wasn't already here, I would agree.  However, it is here, and the problem is that the money isn't just spent on the guideway (which is seriously overbuilt, hopefully if they ever expand, it would be more sleek), but on the O&M center, which cost a pretty penny.

If you had to start from scratch, I wouldn't build it, but it's here now (unfortunately)

[civil42806]

If it wasn't already here, I would agree.  However, it is here, and the problem is that the money isn't just spent on the guideway (which is seriously overbuilt, hopefully if they ever expand, it would be more sleek), but on the O&M center, which cost a pretty penny.

If you had to start from scratch, I wouldn't build it, but it's here now (unfortunately)


Unfortunately it is, but just because you spent some money doesn't mean you want to burn more money after that.  At some point you have to admit you made a mistake and correct the problem, though thats hard.  I can"t imagine any kind of expansion that would justify the expense.

[thelakelander]

The other option to not burning money is to make an effort to finish the regional transportation system that was supposed to feed riders into it.  While I agree it is expensive and overbuilt, its also incomplete.  It's not going to be successful until there's a viable mass transit source stretching to the suburbs that feeds riders into it.

[civil42806]

Boy lakelander the problem here there really any demand, significant from day to day, for the burb residents, of which in disclosure I am one, really to go downtown?  I worked downtown from 95 to 98 and honestly other than jaguar games, some suns games, and some concerts, haven't been down there since.

[Steve]

Unfortunately it is, but just because you spent some money doesn't mean you want to burn more money after that.  At some point you have to admit you made a mistake and correct the problem, though thats hard.  I can"t imagine any kind of expansion that would justify the expense.

Actually, I disagree - there are some places where I think the Skyway holds the key to some of Jacksonville's transportation challenges.  A perfect example is in San Marco - the Trolley failed  there for a couple of reasons (doing a loop that big was completely asinine), but one of the other reasons was because of the railroad tracks - you had to cross the tracks, which inevitably meant getting caught by a 1/2 mile train, that goes through there at about 25 miles an hour.  An expansion of the skyway to Atlantic Blvd (1/2 mile), you now have an opportunity then to connect San Marco Square downtown, using a combination of Skyway and Streetcar/trolley.

Now, I would agree that such an expansion should take a backseat to a regional commuter rail system, but the possibilities are there.

[Steve]

Boy lakelander the problem here there really any demand, significant from day to day, for the burb residents, of which in disclosure I am one, really to go downtown?  I worked downtown from 95 to 98 and honestly other than jaguar games, some suns games, and some concerts, haven't been down there since.

The idea is that public transit and a successful downtown really can go hand in hand.  A regional transportation system I believe is vital to the success of downtown.  I think this was mentioned somewhere else, but the Miami MetroMover was considered a huge failure for it's  first 20 years.  Then, once Miami figured out how best to use it, it has become a vital part of their transit network.

The same thing can happen here, and it could be a key to revitalizing downtown.

[civil42806]

Unfortunately it is, but just because you spent some money doesn't mean you want to burn more money after that.  At some point you have to admit you made a mistake and correct the problem, though thats hard.  I can"t imagine any kind of expansion that would justify the expense.

Actually, I disagree - there are some places where I think the Skyway holds the key to some of Jacksonville's transportation challenges.  A perfect example is in San Marco - the Trolley failed  there for a couple of reasons (doing a loop that big was completely asinine), but one of the other reasons was because of the railroad tracks - you had to cross the tracks, which inevitably meant getting caught by a 1/2 mile train, that goes through there at about 25 miles an hour.  An expansion of the skyway to Atlantic Blvd (1/2 mile), you now have an opportunity then to connect San Marco Square downtown, using a combination of Skyway and Streetcar/trolley.

Now, I would agree that such an expansion should take a backseat to a regional commuter rail system, but the possibilities are there.

I'm sorry Steve, but the overpowering presence of the sky way would Destroy San Marco, yes I am an esthectics person.  Where would we put the huge pillars, in front of bistro Aix or European street or destroy the neighborhoods to run a line around?    Connecting to Atlantic blvd would be great but your talking about crossing the river which means an addition to the bridge, which escalates the cost.

[Steve]

I think you are thinking the wrong area - let me post a picture.  I also am into preservation, and I'm not saying run the thing into San Marco Square.

[civil42806]

Boy lakelander the problem here there really any demand, significant from day to day, for the burb residents, of which in disclosure I am one, really to go downtown?  I worked downtown from 95 to 98 and honestly other than jaguar games, some suns games, and some concerts, haven't been down there since.

The idea is that public transit and a successful downtown really can go hand in hand.  A regional transportation system I believe is vital to the success of downtown.  I think this was mentioned somewhere else, but the Miami MetroMover was considered a huge failure for it's  first 20 years.  Then, once Miami figured out how best to use it, it has become a vital part of their transit network.

The same thing can happen here, and it could be a key to revitalizing downtown.

I agree to certain degreee  Steve, but I unfortunatley don't believe that the transit system leads a vibrant downtown, but vice versa.  I spent many fond years in Downtown Savannah, boozing, and Wh**ring at the bars and clubs, and rode the buses back to my apartment.  I just don't believe that mass transit no matter how successfull will lead to the revitalisation of the downtown of my childhood.

[Steve]

I'm having trouble uploading a file I just created.  In any event, take a look at where Atlantic Blvd Crosses the railroad tracks.  Extend the skyway there.  This is 1/2 mile, and it presents some opportunities to bring it lower along JTA property, keeping costs under control (remember, much of the total cost of the project was spent on one time costs, like the O&M center).  This spot could also be a commuter rail stop with the system that JTA is studying.  Then run a streetcar line from that point down Atlantic blvd to the square, and you could extend it up San Marco Blvd up to the railroad tracks near Baptist.

Anyway, take a look on Google Earth or Mapquest to see what I mean.  Trust me, I'm not advocating taking the thing through the core of San Marco; I'm just using it to get over the railroad.