50 Herbert Hoovers. (Dont forget the Little Guys in Mayor's Offices Everywhere)

[BridgeTroll]

Hong Kong is by far my favorite city... I was lucky to have spent 5 days there.  I intend to go back.

[BridgeTroll]

Same view (Victoria Peak)circa 1966... note the Aircraft Carrier in center...

[tufsu1]

so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?

oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!

[civil42806]

so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?

oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!

The only drawback, is that Dubai is a sheikdom with huge natural resources that require absolutley minimal personal creativity or initiative to generate wealth.  And if they need any work done they hire foreigners, few natives do any work.  The underlying oil make the UAE states an anomoly.

[tufsu1]

RG - I don't necessarily love government....but you portrayed that all of the growth in Hong Kong was the result of free market capitalism....all I did was question that.

Now, I will admit that I tend toward the socialist side of things as an ideal....but I am not dumb enough to believe that it alone is the answer...there should be a balance between capitalism and socialism....agreed?

[tufsu1]

so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?

oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!

The only drawback, is that Dubai is a sheikdom with huge natural resources that require absolutley minimal personal creativity or initiative to generate wealth.  And if they need any work done they hire foreigners, few natives do any work.  The underlying oil make the UAE states an anomoly.

but the reason Dubai is being developed is that the government saw the writing on the wall....they believe their oil resources will be gone in the next 15-20 years, so they are trying to create a new economic base....one that is based on tourism and the like.

[civil42806]

so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?

oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!

The only drawback, is that Dubai is a sheikdom with huge natural resources that require absolutley minimal personal creativity or initiative to generate wealth.  And if they need any work done they hire foreigners, few natives do any work.  The underlying oil make the UAE states an anomoly.

but the reason Dubai is being developed is that the government saw the writing on the wall....they believe their oil resources will be gone in the next 15-20 years, so they are trying to create a new economic base....one that is based on tourism and the like.

Absolutely agree tufusu1,  I worked and lived in Abu Dhabi for a few years and traveled to Dubai, Bahrain and Saudi on business.  The company that employed me in Abu Dhabi was set up for the exact reason you discussed they hoped that it would stimulate the economy and provide employement for the locals.  Instead, Management/engineering were all Brits and Americans, and the workers were all Pakistanis and Phillapinos.  The closest we saw to a Native working was when the sheik would pass through to grace us with his presence. 

I just don't see it working out in the long term for Dubai, there is no real freedom of speech, press is controlled not as tight as in some areas and its still in the middle of the desert, but does have beautiful beaches. Personal initiative amongst the locals is almost non existent, other thang banging there heads on the floor 3 times a day. I believe when the money runs out on the oil the desert will reclaim all those gleaming towers that the government is building.  The UAE has a pretty seamy underside under all that glittering shiny glass that they are putting up.

[BridgeTroll]

Your experiences mirror mine civil... I spent time in Saudi Arabia (Dhahran) and Bahrain (Manama).  Most arabs that I saw did not work.  Nearly all labor is supplied by Pakisatan and Phillipines.  Brits and Americans supply all technical and consulting and the arabs sign checks.  Not sure about Dubai but in Bahrain you could actually get a drink in resterants and bars... We always secretly snickered at the Saudi men who would cross the bridge to Bahrain to party...

[tufsu1]

Have you ever been to Israel RG?

Its hardly a socialist country....now there used to be many kibbutzim that were based on socialist principles, but almost all of them are now market-based.

Israel promises citizenship to any Jew around the world...and has taken in many Soviet and Ethipioan Jews who came with nothing and didn't know the language.

Also, you might want to take note of what they have done with their country...in 1917, it was almost entirely desert...now its a technologically advanced nation-state....and most of the changes have occurred since 1948!

[stjr]

Finally, analyze the fact that Israel has not seen as much growth as the US or HK in the latter half of the 20th century while "enjoying" a socialist economy and also considering that financial success Jews enjoy elsewhere in the world.

I have to side with tufsu on this comment.  I have been to Israel and, take away the Hebrew and ancient archaeological sites, you would think you were in any major highly developed capitalistic area of the US.

Israel also has lots of very advanced and developed high tech companies, including medical, defense, food science, software, and semiconductor industries.  I don't think they would be thriving without a good dose of capitalistic spirit.    Aside from tourism, technology is likely their biggest export from what I have read.  As an aside, its educational system and universities are also top notch (maybe we could learn a lesson about the value of investing more in our educational system for the good of our future).

Its really amazing when you consider they have no oil, very little fresh water or other natural resources, are essentially in a desert, are totally surrounded by nations hostile to them, been through countless wars, have to devote much of their population and resources to self defense, it's one of the world's smallest countries, and last year turned just 60 years old as a country.  I doubt any country has come so far and been through so much with so little in so short a time.

I don't want to start any kind of Mideast debate here but I would like to make a general observation.  When you see how geographically "intimate", and sometimes intermingled, Israel is with the West Bank and Gaza - not to mention its borders with Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon - it's incredible there isn't more conflict.  (The entire country would fit approximately between the Georgia state line and Daytona and isn't wider than Duval County in most places.  From the Golan Hights at the Syrian border to the west, you can see the other side of the country to the east at the Mediterannean Sea.)  In places, it's like if San Marco was at war with San Jose with the literal ability to just drive down the road to cross from one side to the other at a traffic light.  Traditionally, they have had a pourous, ever-changing, and transparent "zone" to set Israeli's and Palestinians apart (at least prior to the "wall" recently built in some areas).  You have to go there to understand how Israelis and Palestinians so closely co-exist and are, often times, almost "on top of each other".  Once you do, you realize why peace there is so hard to come by given their persistant adversarial feelings toward each other.  Truly remarkable.

[civil42806]

Your experiences mirror mine civil... I spent time in Saudi Arabia (Dhahran) and Bahrain (Manama).  Most arabs that I saw did not work.  Nearly all labor is supplied by Pakisatan and Phillipines.  Brits and Americans supply all technical and consulting and the arabs sign checks.  Not sure about Dubai but in Bahrain you could actually get a drink in resterants and bars... We always secretly snickered at the Saudi men who would cross the bridge to Bahrain to party...

Ever spend any time in the Holiday inn or Hiltons Bar in Manama?    I was MEEster Tim to the waitresses at both.   Yes you can certainly get a drink in almost all of the UAE, I always got a kick at watching the backed up cars on the bridgeway between Saudi and Bahrain on a thursday night.

[Lunican]

Laffer Investments portfolio performance: -48.7%

[Midway ®]

Well, river, what say you?

Can you imagine getting you news and views from these people?   

The Dow will be at 16,000?

Merrill Lynch a bargain at $70.00?

A spectacularly run company?

What a bunch of delusional morons.

Ben Stein should have stuck to the clear eyes commercials. Maybe he should have used the product and he would have been able to see the coming train wreck.

It's funny how history has a way of proving them wrong. The people who watched them and took their word as gospel must feel like real fools.

On the other hand, investing with Vince from Sham-Wow! has turned out much better, right, RG?