Duval County Courthouse Renderings

[thelakelander]

Lake, let's examine the points you and Ock have made about all the "life" potential around the new courthouse.  First, I don't think you can attribute much "life" downtown to the current courthouse or to the new Federal courthouse.  Maybe a few lunch spots, not much else that I see.

I think the vacant garage retail bays have the potential to become new lunch spots.  Other than that, the relocation of the courthouse, bad design and all, should also trigger a shift in the location of support services, such as law firms.  With that said, we may see some buildings redeveloped for new uses catering to the courthouse and its support uses.  Two that come to mind are the Ambassador Hotel and Old JEA headquarters.

And, you already note that 3 sides of the new courthouse are closed off.  The fourth faces a one way street and a large "green," putting courthouse visitors at least 1 to 2 blocks from surrounding areas, assuming the public entrance is at the midpoint of the building.  Once outside, most of the immediate surrounding blocks to the south and east are controlled by the City so it's going to be a bit of a walk from the courthouse to just about anywhere.

That walk can be a pleasant one if (that's a BIG IF, I admit) the land controlled by the city is developed into a usable public square.

As to the vacant retail bays in the Forsyth garage, I don't see much there and what is is pretty small looking.

Its easier for a small business to open in an existing space as opposed to purchasing and building from scratch on a vacant lot.  I only mentioned them because they would be prime candidates to be filled with restaurants and lunch spots catering to the new crowd in the general area.  

As to connecting to Hemming Plaza. thanks to the massive 7 blocks owned by the City and the next blocks owned by the Federal Courthouse and City's Ed Ball building, where is there room for anyone to retail in between?

It will be one block from Hemming to the "green space".  There is retail along a portion of that block already (Quizno's) and a vacant spot on the opposite end at the corner of Monroe & Julia.  Other than that, to pull people into the area, the "green space" will have to be an attraction in itself.  We screwed up the courthouse's design, so really all we have left at salvation is the development of a decent public space on the remaining land.

Explain this BRT thing to me again.  I thought it was primarily to bring in commuters from the suburbs quickly to downtown, not to be a downtown local.  If BRT is to terminate at the JTA intermodal, it won't be focusing traffic in this area.

I'll admit the overall BRT project won't result in attracting infill development.  However, the major benefit in the immediate area is the project involves rebuilding Broad Street.  You're a long time advocate of wide pedestrian friendly sidewalks.  Well running BRT down Broad and Jefferson calls for improving the streetscape, landscaping and lighting along those corridors.  If JTA can eliminate the wicked downtown loop all of their current buses take and consolidate those routes to Broad & Jefferson, the few stops in these corridors have the potential to add additional pedestrians in the area.  So while you won't land a office building because the bus comes by, you could end up with a couple of hot dog vendors or kiosks, which is better than what's there today.

Lake, the pictures and map of Nashville are nice.  But none of it shows private development or retail infill around their courthouse either.  If it's there, I don't see it.  Not sure this is a good sign for ours.

I look at the green space as having the potential to be an attraction in and of itself, if it becomes more than grass or passive space.  The area around the Nashville was already developed.  I did notice a new Hotel Indigo opening in a building that had been vacant for a while across the street.  However, I can't say that it opened because of the park or because Nashville's DT is vibrant.

Hotel Indigo
New Property
301 Union Street
Nashville, TN 37201
Open Date: Fall 2009
www.ichotels.com
With the success of the Hotel Indigo located on West End Avenue, a second location is scheduled to open in Fall 2009 and will occupy the renovated 82-year-old American Trust building at Third Avenue North and Union Street. The boutique hotel will feature 96 rooms.
http://www.visitmusiccity.com/media/presskit_developmentsrenovations


I took this image from Nashville's square last summer.  The historic highrise in the middle was under reconstruction at the time.  It was being converted into the Hotel Indigo mentioned above.

My conclusion is "same old, same old".  No master plan, no common sense, just random projects with people trying to make sense of it all after the fact.  The discussions we are having here should have been held before the courthouse was designed and, then, the conclusions should have been integrated into its design.  More typical Jax lack of vision.

I agree, but we still have time to change the impact of the green space.  If we don't discuss it and push for it, then we know what the end result will be.....same old, same old.  

I won't believe the courthouse stimulates downtown to any real degree until I see it with my own eyes.  Sure, maybe a few law firms build or move into buildings in the area, but that's not going to trip the light fantastic based on past experiences.  Anything more than that, I'm not holding my breath.

I actually agree with you.  Sorry if I gave the impression that I believe the courthouse has the power to transform LaVilla into a real vibrant district.

[Ocklawaha]

COURTHOUSE STATION?? Maybe! This scene duplicated using any combination of Bus - Skyway - Streetcar - Commuter Rail, is EXACTLY what our city should be striving for. Duplicate this scene in San Marco? Skyway - Bus - Commuter Rail;  duplicate it at Shand's?  Streetcar - Commuter Rail - BRT - Bus; at Riverside? Skyway - Bus - Streetcar; at A.P.Randolph? Skyway - Streetcar - Bus - BRT...    Food for thought!

Lake, let's examine the points you and Ock have made about all the "life" potential around the new courthouse.  First, I don't think you can attribute much "life" downtown to the current courthouse or to the new Federal courthouse.  Maybe a few lunch spots, not much else that I see.

Explain this BRT thing to me again.  I thought it was primarily to bring in commuters from the suburbs quickly to downtown, not to be a downtown local.  If BRT is to terminate at the JTA intermodal, it won't be focusing traffic in this area.

I'll admit the overall BRT project won't result in attracting infill development.  However, the major benefit in the immediate area is the project involves rebuilding Broad Street.  You're a long time advocate of wide pedestrian friendly sidewalks.  Well running BRT down Broad and Jefferson calls for improving the streetscape, landscaping and lighting along those corridors.  If JTA can eliminate the wicked downtown loop all of their current buses take and consolidate those routes to Broad & Jefferson, the few stops in these corridors have the potential to add additional pedestrians in the area.  So while you won't land a office building because the bus comes by, you could end up with a couple of hot dog vendors or kiosks, which is better than what's there today. 

I won't believe the courthouse stimulates downtown to any real degree until I see it with my own eyes.  Sure, maybe a few law firms build or move into buildings in the area, but that's not going to trip the light fantastic based on past experiences.  Anything more than that, I'm not holding my breath.

I actually agree with you.  Sorry if I gave the impression that I believe the courthouse has the power to transform LaVilla into a real vibrant district.

I agree that BRT in and of itself will NOT create a damn thing in Transit Oriented Development (TOD), it never has, and in the one big case that the highway lobby loves to cite, all of the development except for a McDonald's was government.  In other words, build a super expensive bus system that want's to be light rail, then move the government offices all along the line and boast World Wide about all of the "TOD" the BRT attracted. Hardly.

That said, the BRT is much more likely to become an acceptable means of transport for Jacksonville's business class, or white collar citizens. The attraction of the BRT in the immediate will be slight among this group, but when tied to Commuter Rail along Philips, and the Airport and Far north Main Street, plus streetcar and Skyway, the BRT will become a very desirable component for our routes which have ridership in proportion somewhere between regular bus service and rail/monorail services.

Few attorneys and executives are likely to travel the current Air JTA for a couple of reasons:
It's just another bus in a city that has never known real mass transit, "Transit Virgins".
It's a long cement road to the airport and City buses with their poor airbag suspension tend to gallop making for discomfort on longer routes.
It's running but not at all hours and on all days, and the headways are poor. When every citizen realizes that they can catch transit to the airport every 30 minutes, rain, shine, night, day, dark or dawn, we start to see change.

Once the BRT becomes operational and falls into place as a compliment to rail and monorail, we'll have the ability to operate a seamless service, cross platform transfers, mixing modes, throughout the city. When it becomes common knowledge that Mr. Attorney, Judge, or Executive can leave the airport rail station, to Shand's, transfer to the BRT, and move rapidly and directly to the Courthouse Stop, your going to see huge change. Toss in future streetcar, running at a 90 degree angle to the BRT on Duval Street, and the courthouse will be the anchor of a blowtorch development zone.

Investors from transit savvy cities, know these advantages and have already scored big all across the globe. It doesn't take rocket science to see the projection that mass transit, plus courthouse, will be an unstoppable catalist.

AS A POSTSCRIPT:

Consider that with BRT and rail punching through the northside in two directions, and hubbing out of Jacksonville Terminal, provide a strong case for finishing the Skyway as a distributor to Riverside, San Marco, and East Bay Street. It also speaks loudly to the streetcar running from Kent Campus/Fairfax north all the way into Springfield/Shand's, with as much exclusive lane running as possible. 

Yes, I do believe the Courthouse will begat more and more development, and I think as each new transit system and route comes on line, this development will accelerate. While I don't care for the "Explosion in a Pillar Factory" architecture of the new edifice, I am quite pleased that the city and JTA seem to be doing things right.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

New County Courthouse: inside and out

Courthouse progress

“If you blink you’ll miss something.”

That’s how Dave Schneider, the City’s Better Jacksonville Plan project manager, described progress on the job site of the County Courthouse.

About 300 workers are on site at this time, with many more scheduled to report for work when the interior part of the job begins in earnest, said Turner Construction Company Senior Project Manager Louis Fiore. That will be in about a year when the structure is fully enclosed. Until then work goes on 12 to 14 hours a day, six days a week to stay on schedule, said Fiore.

The project is to the point you can’t miss it even at a distance. Here’s what’s going on inside the new building.

article with images: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=530733

[Keith-N-Jax]

It is going up pretty fast. I am pleased with the progress.

[Timkin]

It is a somewhat attractive building.. For a modern one, I am not too offended. It does have some appealing features, but it is far from a "Historic" look..but what I really hate is that some really beautiful Structures came down to put this thing in this particular spot. More of the same that has gone on in Jax for decades.   When will they get that you cannot raze everything historic?

[stjr]

By the way, Mayor Peyton stated on First Coast Connect earlier this week that the "green" in front of the courthouse is destined in the future to be used for additional expansions of the complex/annexes.  So, don't look for a permanent park/green space.  Did everyone realize that?  I didn't.

[Timkin]

More  spaces to fill the building with "dead wood ".   Sorry...did that sound pessimist?

[Bostech]

I am suprised they didnt put statue of Peyton in front of courthouse.

[Timkin]

Bostech......

DID YOU HAVE TO POST THAT PICTURE?   

lol

[JaxNative68]

I am suprised they didnt put statue of Peyton in front of courthouse.

if they did, it couldn't be life size, nobody would be able to see it.

[Timkin]

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!   Toooo  chayyyy !!!! 

[TheProfessor]

I do hope they fill that green space with something worthwhile!

[urbanlibertarian]

Here's a good use for the green space.   

[CS Foltz]

Good idea UL................save it for "Elected Officials" that gouge the taxpayer and maybe that will change!

[Timkin]

We could keep it busy if it was built today....for quite a while