Duval County Courthouse Renderings

[Bostech]

^ not to mention the tradition was started by steel workers and typically the tree was anchored to the last beam on the ground prior to being hoisted into place.  Just doesn't seem right to do it on a cast-in-place concrete structure.

You are right,masons have different rituals.

[urbanlibertarian]

Right on, Brainstormer.  The Courthouse will be an up to 7 block "dead zone" in the midst of Downtown that non-courthouse seeking Downtown visitors and residents will have to navigate around (if they bother at all).  Add to it the new Downtown "dead zone" that will surround the proposed disastrously designed multi-block intermodal center that JTA is planning and all the existing non-street friendly office towers, public buildings, parking garages and lots, and FBC campus, and it becomes easy to see why downtown Jax never takes off.

Huh? Maybe after dark the new courthouse area will be a "dead zone" but daytime Mon-Fri I think we can expect a lot of people and some new businesses to cater to them.  I'll bet the Sinclair sees a lot more business  then as well.

[heights unknown]

Put some nightclubs and bars in on that west end of Bay Street; that'll keep that area alive.  Have to draw people to that area first though.

"HU"

[Ocklawaha]

Right on, Brainstormer.  The Courthouse will be an up to 7 block "dead zone" in the midst of Downtown that non-courthouse seeking Downtown visitors and residents will have to navigate around (if they bother at all).  Add to it the new Downtown "dead zone" that will surround the proposed disastrously designed multi-block intermodal center that JTA is planning and all the existing non-street friendly office towers, public buildings, parking garages and lots, and FBC campus, and it becomes easy to see why downtown Jax never takes off.

Huh? Maybe after dark the new courthouse area will be a "dead zone" but daytime Mon-Fri I think we can expect a lot of people and some new businesses to cater to them.  I'll bet the Sinclair sees a lot more business  then as well.

Agreed, that many new employees with higher incomes, plus all of the "Joe lunch bucket," and "Joe steals lunch bucket," types have to eat, sleep, drink, copy, print, research, represent, become represented, answered, notarized, and certified... This is going to be anything but a dead zone. Add the Bus Rapid Transit, on Broad and nearby Jefferson, and I think we're on the cusp of seeing a mini-boom downtown. I'd expect over the next couple of years, if we don't all vanish on 12-21-12, at least an equal amount of money invested in the private sector and scattered all around this new edifice.

Want to invest? Want to develop? I'm telling you now, LEARN where the money is going and get there ahead of the pack.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Its too late for the building (which kills three sides of pedestrian traffic), so its time to pay closer attention to other projects in the immediate area.  Two major influences on the future of this area will be how the city develops the green space (bounded by Monroe, Julia, Adams and Broad) and JTA integrates BRT.  The majority of the courthouse's foot traffic will arrive from the garage at Adams/Clay and Monroe Street from the Hemming Plaza/Ed Ball Building area.  The spots most likely to benefit are the vacant retail bays in the Forysth Street and the Courthouse garage.  If BRT can be integrated with the public space and the public space developed right, an activity center could become a reality along Broad Street.

If that public space can be developed in a similar fashion to Nashville's public square, it will draw decent pedestrian activity and encourage adjacent infill on nearby underutilized parcels.

Nashville's Public Square

[Ocklawaha]

Exactly, which is why when I first proposed a figure 8 as a possible core system for streetcars, the route was down Broad from Randolph to Lee. This also puts Sax Sea Food very close... Bet you never guessed there is a long term method to my madness!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

If done right, the BRT project should include upgrading the Broad Street streetscape with context sensitive sidewalks, landscaping, lighting, bike lanes and BRT stop that's well integrated with the public space and potentially offering room for a small cafe/newstand/kiosk, etc.  



The larger question is will a focus on multimodal (pedestrian, bike, included) transportation options happen with JTA in charge?  If they can grasp the idea that pedestrian and bike connectivity are just as important as upgrading the buses, BRT along that stretch should be a positive factor.

[thelakelander]

Exactly, which is why when I first proposed a figure 8 as a possible core system for streetcars, the route was down Broad from Randolph to Lee. This also puts Sax Sea Food very close... Bet you never guessed there is a long term method to my madness!

OCKLAWAHA

The only thing with the Figure 8 is money to implement anything is limited.  It sucks but that is a reality we face and must accept.  Since its limited, you have to get more bang with the initial buck.  The figure 8 only dumps money into a limited DT/LaVilla area.  It would be more of a tourist trolley than effective mass transit for the urban core.  For the same price, you could take that figure 8 loop and stretch it out into a line that directly connects DT with Springfield and Riverside.  Overall, the urban core and downtown would be better off with a system that serves a larger pool of residents and encourages a wider path of transit oriented development.  However, looking long term (after urban core neighborhoods are connected with DT and each other via rail) it certainly has merit.

[Ocklawaha]

Exactly, which is why when I first proposed a figure 8 as a possible core system for streetcars, the route was down Broad from Randolph to Lee. This also puts Sax Sea Food very close... Bet you never guessed there is a long term method to my madness!

OCKLAWAHA

The only thing with the Figure 8 is money to implement anything is limited.  It sucks but that is a reality we face and must accept.  Since its limited, you have to get more bang with the initial buck.  The figure 8 only dumps money into a limited DT/LaVilla area.  It would be more of a tourist trolley than effective mass transit for the urban core.  For the same price, you could take that figure 8 loop and stretch it out into a line that directly connects DT with Springfield and Riverside.  Overall, the urban core and downtown would be better off with a system that serves a larger pool of residents and encourages a wider path of transit oriented development.  However, looking long term (after urban core neighborhoods are connected with DT and each other via rail) it certainly has merit.

Which is why I continue to draw it... I've got no illusions about doing it building it all at once, I've figured phases into this for 30 years. In fact the first proposal that I presented to DDA (back in the day) only called for Water Street to Newnan, with Bay, as a possible second phase. I think my referring to the "8" as the core, has thrown some folks off, thinking I'm talking about an "original system plan" as a core. I'm not, I am proposing it as the CORE of an eventual system that reaches out in several directions... We're on the same page.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Figure 8 or a cloverleaf..........matters not to me, just lets get something going somehow somewhere!!

[thelakelander]

We did that in the 1980s with the skyway and look at where it got us.  In addition to getting something going somewhere, this time around we're going to have to make sure whatever we get going connects with the right spots to be an immediate success.

[Jaxson]

I have seen a participatory fountain in Boston near the Christian Science's 'Mother Church.'  The fountain appeared to be a destination for Boston folks who took their swimsuit-clad kids to splash around in the summer heat. 
What kind of response would a similar fountain get down here in Jax?

[Fallen Buckeye]

I have seen a participatory fountain in Boston near the Christian Science's 'Mother Church.'  The fountain appeared to be a destination for Boston folks who took their swimsuit-clad kids to splash around in the summer heat. 
What kind of response would a similar fountain get down here in Jax?

Judging by what I've by taking my kids to Kids Kampus on a hot summer day I'd say there'd be plenty of draw to an outdoor fountain area. Especially with the summers here being so insufferably hot and muggy. With some transit lines are nearby I think that a public fountain could draw quite a crowd.

Wonder how amenable the powers that be would be to having a gaggle of kids playing outside their place of work though. They'd probably see it as detracting from the dignity of this "pantheon" of public justice. Personally, I'd love to see it though.

[thelakelander]

They would be hypocrites since the preaching over the years has been about making Jax a family-friendly place.  If DT is to ever become a vibrant place, it has to appeal to all ages.  

With that said, it makes little sense that the only tot lot DT is at Kids Kampus which is over a mile from the Northbank core.  Since we're going to end up with a three block green space, we might as well try and get some decent use out of it on a regular basis.


Why not carve out a corner of green space for a decent urban playground? With the library and MOCA Jax nearby, it would give people with kids and groups on field trips reason to stay in the heart of downtown a little longer.  It would also help improve the quality of DT to urbanites with children.

[stjr]

Its too late for the building (which kills three sides of pedestrian traffic), so its time to pay closer attention to other projects in the immediate area.  Two major influences on the future of this area will be how the city develops the green space (bounded by Monroe, Julia, Adams and Broad) and JTA integrates BRT.  The majority of the courthouse's foot traffic will arrive from the garage at Adams/Clay and Monroe Street from the Hemming Plaza/Ed Ball Building area.  The spots most likely to benefit are the vacant retail bays in the Forysth Street and the Courthouse garage.  If BRT can be integrated with the public space and the public space developed right, an activity center could become a reality along Broad Street.

If that public space can be developed in a similar fashion to Nashville's public square, it will draw decent pedestrian activity and encourage adjacent infill on nearby underutilized parcels.

Lake, let's examine the points you and Ock have made about all the "life" potential around the new courthouse.  First, I don't think you can attribute much "life" downtown to the current courthouse or to the new Federal courthouse.  Maybe a few lunch spots, not much else that I see.  And, you already note that 3 sides of the new courthouse are closed off.  The fourth faces a one way street and a large "green," putting courthouse visitors at least 1 to 2 blocks from surrounding areas, assuming the public entrance is at the midpoint of the building.  Once outside, most of the immediate surrounding blocks to the south and east are controlled by the City so it's going to be a bit of a walk from the courthouse to just about anywhere.

As to the vacant retail bays in the Forsyth garage, I don't see much there and what is is pretty small looking.  As to connecting to Hemming Plaza. thanks to the massive 7 blocks owned by the City and the next blocks owned by the Federal Courthouse and City's Ed Ball building, where is there room for anyone to retail in between?

Explain this BRT thing to me again.  I thought it was primarily to bring in commuters from the suburbs quickly to downtown, not to be a downtown local.  If BRT is to terminate at the JTA intermodal, it won't be focusing traffic in this area.

Lake, the pictures and map of Nashville are nice.  But none of it shows private development or retail infill around their courthouse either.  If it's there, I don't see it.  Not sure this is a good sign for ours.  

My conclusion is "same old, same old".  No master plan, no common sense, just random projects with people trying to make sense of it all after the fact.  The discussions we are having here should have been held before the courthouse was designed and, then, the conclusions should have been integrated into its design.  More typical Jax lack of vision.  

I won't believe the courthouse stimulates downtown to any real degree until I see it with my own eyes.  Sure, maybe a few law firms build or move into buildings in the area, but that's not going to trip the light fantastic based on past experiences.  Anything more than that, I'm not holding my breath.