Rebuilding RISE Doro

[Ken_FSU]

^I hope a lesson that we take away from both Rise Doro's struggles to lease, and Intuition's Departure, is that it does us more harm than good to mislead and burn earnest investors with nonsense like the DVI reports, leaving them holding the bag when the emperor turns out to not be wearing any clothes.

Look at the DVI's reports from the time that RISE purchased the Doro land, you can't blame for them thinking that the area was set to explode. As a city, we're out there positioning projects like Lot J, the Shipyards, and the Landing redevelopment as done-deal "pipeline" projects, when there wasn't even a redevelopment agreement in place for any of the land. It's bad business.

[acme54321]

The best part about that report is arguably the most catalytic project for the city, Gateway Jax, isn't even on their radar yet.  Save for the four season (which isnt going to really do anything for the city as a whole) it's all still a pipe dream. 

[CityLife]

Fantastic point Ken. I do think there is a general lack of understanding market dynamics, deficiencies, and what it takes to create a truly sustainable downtown among many leaders in Jax. There seems to be a belief that you simply build residential anywhere and people will come.

Union Terminal Warehouse is a good example. Of the 228 total units, 132 are currently available, despite the project having been open for almost a year. The property is offering two months free rent plus a $1,000 incentive. And since some of the occupied units are affordable/workforce housing, the vacancy rate for market-rate units is likely even higher than 58%.
https://www.utwjax.com/apartments/fl/jacksonville/floor-plans#k=47714

By contrast, Vista Brooklyn has only 20 available units out of 308 and does not appear to be offering major leasing incentives. 220 Riverside has 18 available units out of 282, though it is offering some incentives. Clearly, there is market demand in Brooklyn, likely because these projects are within walking distance of multiple employers and are located in a far more walkable, active, amenity rich area.

Jax may simply be adding more housing than the downtown market can realistically absorb right now, especially without enough employers to support it and especially when some of it isn't within walking distance of jobs. You can keep delivering new units, but if there aren't more jobs and people downtown every day, demand only goes so far. Gateway Jax has an unreal land assemblage, great vision, and is executing the vision already, but I still believe the project only truly succeeds is if UF does follow through and brings the fully promised campus online. I just don't know where else the residents come from.

In summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

[Ken_FSU]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

Fully agree.

And would also add that in addition to focusing on bringing more employment downtown, we need to focus on keeping existing jobs downtown as well.

RE: Union Terminal being half-empty while Vista Brooklyn is nearly full. Wonder if that would be any different had JSO not moved 740 employees from the CBD to Brooklyn. Meanwhile, DCPS is pulling 600 jobs from downtown and relocating their headquarters to Baymeadows. 

These are public-sector jobs actively being pulled from the CBD, at the same time we're investing billions into trying to create a more vibrant central core.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

[CityLife]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

I had the exact thought when Intuition announced their closure and love it in concept. It's such a slippery slope though where the DIA and/or City Council are forced to pick winners and losers. If you give the grant to Intuition and Bellwether and don't offer one to Dos Gatos or Cowford Chophouse, do they get angry and threaten to close too?

I don't have any inside info, but from reading Ben's closure email, my takeaway was that the decision reflected a lack of long term confidence more than short term cash flow. I think it ultimately comes down to the leaders of Downtown Jax demonstrating that there is light at the end of the tunnel for businesses currently struggling.

Rather than offer the cash grant to individual businesses, maybe a more equitable way to deal with the issue is to invest more money into programming special events in the next few years. With no Jags and concerts at Daily's, this is strongly needed anyways. Imo, DIA/DVI should come out with some kind of special branded events program to instill confidence in existing businesses. One thought is to have a concert series at Vystar Ballpark. If Black Sabbath could play at Wolfson Park back in the 70's, surely some acts could play at Vystar now.

[jaxlongtimer]

I revert to investing in infrastructure rather than incentives.  This includes streetscapes, security, green spaces, public art, urban core transit lines that loop the urban core and connect downtown to surrounding neighborhoods, etc.

If we are going to do incentives, instead of handing out tens and hundreds of millions to big projects, give those millions to small business that will employ more people and create granular character, energy and buzz that draws people in.

Do all of the above in a thoughtful, planned way, and Downtown and surroundings might actually take off.

Money for the stadium, Four Seasons, Brooklyn and Southbank developments, more apartments and hotels is a waste.  None of these are going to sustainably bring more people to Downtown or make it more interesting.  And, none would need incentives if there was already existing excitement before they arrived.

Gateway gets this on some level by promoting lots of street level retail and restaurants with a dose of nightlife and not just building apartments, hotels, offices.  These smaller deals are what will drive the success of the bigger ones. 

DIA has it all upside down.  Small leads to big, not the other way around.  You would think after 60 years of Downtown failing by betting on "mega projects" going back to the conversion of the riverfront from shipyards and port docks to mid-century urban renewal projects and massive block-reinvention programs like the River City Renaissance and Better Jacksonville Plan, we would have learned to try a different approach.  Yet, here we are doing more of the same.

You can't force Downtown success.  It needs to be organic.  That requires an uprising by the little guys.

[heights unknown]

As we are aware, there's a new Leader at DIA; email, forward, zap these thoughts, opinions, etc. to him (if you haven't already done so). Someone recently stated in a thread and/or post, that "The Jaxson's" voice, nowadays is being MORE heard and considered at City Hall; they cannot do it alone (though they may think so). Use this wonderful medium as a line and voice (and advocacy) between City Hall (and DIA) and the Public (if this is currently not being effectuated).

[marcuscnelson]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

I had the exact thought when Intuition announced their closure and love it in concept. It's such a slippery slope though where the DIA and/or City Council are forced to pick winners and losers. If you give the grant to Intuition and Bellwether and don't offer one to Dos Gatos or Cowford Chophouse, do they get angry and threaten to close too?

I don't have any inside info, but from reading Ben's closure email, my takeaway was that the decision reflected a lack of long term confidence more than short term cash flow. I think it ultimately comes down to the leaders of Downtown Jax demonstrating that there is light at the end of the tunnel for businesses currently struggling.

Apparently, the city might be considering exactly that to keep EverBank from following Citizens to the suburbs.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/sources-city-offering-everbank-nearly-10m-stay-downtown-amid-safety-concerns/TPGHZHEL3ZHTTA7EZYFUSQZNX4/#j1byb0gy0abmgfha36t91kxi56cpn07s

[vicupstate]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

I had the exact thought when Intuition announced their closure and love it in concept. It's such a slippery slope though where the DIA and/or City Council are forced to pick winners and losers. If you give the grant to Intuition and Bellwether and don't offer one to Dos Gatos or Cowford Chophouse, do they get angry and threaten to close too?

I don't have any inside info, but from reading Ben's closure email, my takeaway was that the decision reflected a lack of long term confidence more than short term cash flow. I think it ultimately comes down to the leaders of Downtown Jax demonstrating that there is light at the end of the tunnel for businesses currently struggling.

Apparently, the city might be considering exactly that to keep EverBank from following Citizens to the suburbs.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/sources-city-offering-everbank-nearly-10m-stay-downtown-amid-safety-concerns/TPGHZHEL3ZHTTA7EZYFUSQZNX4/#j1byb0gy0abmgfha36t91kxi56cpn07s

Spend that $10 million to MAKE DT safe instead of cutting a check to Citizens.

[Ken_FSU]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

I had the exact thought when Intuition announced their closure and love it in concept. It's such a slippery slope though where the DIA and/or City Council are forced to pick winners and losers. If you give the grant to Intuition and Bellwether and don't offer one to Dos Gatos or Cowford Chophouse, do they get angry and threaten to close too?

I don't have any inside info, but from reading Ben's closure email, my takeaway was that the decision reflected a lack of long term confidence more than short term cash flow. I think it ultimately comes down to the leaders of Downtown Jax demonstrating that there is light at the end of the tunnel for businesses currently struggling.

Apparently, the city might be considering exactly that to keep EverBank from following Citizens to the suburbs.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/sources-city-offering-everbank-nearly-10m-stay-downtown-amid-safety-concerns/TPGHZHEL3ZHTTA7EZYFUSQZNX4/#j1byb0gy0abmgfha36t91kxi56cpn07s

Spend that $10 million to MAKE DT safe instead of cutting a check to Citizens.

The Council Members complaining that subsidies and incentives are still necessary in the CBD are the same Council Members who stripped homeless services and affordable housing out of the mayor's budget. Leading to truly insane, self-defeating situations like this. The DIA and city need to concentrate their full, undivided efforts on cleaning up and building out a vibrant CBD, hospitable to office workers, residents, and private developers. Everything else - Southbank and Brooklyn in particular - can wait. As Walter White famously said, half measures don't work. Get it right once, instead of another fifty years of start and stop. Broken record after all these years, but I'd take that $8 million in cash that we earmarked for a hospital's remote boutique hotel on the Southbank and invest it into JWJP and the surrounding blocks. And work outward from there.

[jcjohnpaint]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

I had the exact thought when Intuition announced their closure and love it in concept. It's such a slippery slope though where the DIA and/or City Council are forced to pick winners and losers. If you give the grant to Intuition and Bellwether and don't offer one to Dos Gatos or Cowford Chophouse, do they get angry and threaten to close too?

I don't have any inside info, but from reading Ben's closure email, my takeaway was that the decision reflected a lack of long term confidence more than short term cash flow. I think it ultimately comes down to the leaders of Downtown Jax demonstrating that there is light at the end of the tunnel for businesses currently struggling.

Apparently, the city might be considering exactly that to keep EverBank from following Citizens to the suburbs.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/sources-city-offering-everbank-nearly-10m-stay-downtown-amid-safety-concerns/TPGHZHEL3ZHTTA7EZYFUSQZNX4/#j1byb0gy0abmgfha36t91kxi56cpn07s

Spend that $10 million to MAKE DT safe instead of cutting a check to Citizens.

Was thinking the same thing. Same council that cut taxes and now are too broke. same council that compares town center to downtown when considering incentives. Same council that follows DumpyTrumpynomics. God help us.

[Tacachale]

n summary, I think Jax's full effort should be focused on bringing more employment downtown and making sure the UF project is fully realized.

It would be challenging to administer, but I do wish their was some "incentive" mechanism we could leverage to protect existing business within the CBD while we wait for all of this new development to come online. 2028 seems to be around the time that a lot of things are going to finish. In the interim, it would be great to offer small retention grants to businesses considering relocation, and forgivable stopgap loans for businesses like Intuition and Bellwether that are just barely getting by.

I had the exact thought when Intuition announced their closure and love it in concept. It's such a slippery slope though where the DIA and/or City Council are forced to pick winners and losers. If you give the grant to Intuition and Bellwether and don't offer one to Dos Gatos or Cowford Chophouse, do they get angry and threaten to close too?

I don't have any inside info, but from reading Ben's closure email, my takeaway was that the decision reflected a lack of long term confidence more than short term cash flow. I think it ultimately comes down to the leaders of Downtown Jax demonstrating that there is light at the end of the tunnel for businesses currently struggling.

Apparently, the city might be considering exactly that to keep EverBank from following Citizens to the suburbs.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/sources-city-offering-everbank-nearly-10m-stay-downtown-amid-safety-concerns/TPGHZHEL3ZHTTA7EZYFUSQZNX4/#j1byb0gy0abmgfha36t91kxi56cpn07s

Spend that $10 million to MAKE DT safe instead of cutting a check to Citizens.

The Council Members complaining that subsidies and incentives are still necessary in the CBD are the same Council Members who stripped homeless services and affordable housing out of the mayor's budget. Leading to truly insane, self-defeating situations like this. The DIA and city need to concentrate their full, undivided efforts on cleaning up and building out a vibrant CBD, hospitable to office workers, residents, and private developers. Everything else - Southbank and Brooklyn in particular - can wait. As Walter White famously said, half measures don't work. Get it right once, instead of another fifty years of start and stop. Broken record after all these years, but I'd take that $8 million in cash that we earmarked for a hospital's remote boutique hotel on the Southbank and invest it into JWJP and the surrounding blocks. And work outward from there.

This. 50% of the problem is lack of followthrough on the good projects and good decisions. Even when we aren't doing something as egregious as, say, demolishing the Landing, we're not continuing to invest in the things that work. Makes it tough to ever get out of the hole even when things are on an upswing like they are now.

[Jankelope]

I like riverfront plaza, but add up the price of demolition, lost property tax revenues, cost of new construction, etc and what is the total we have sunk into Phase 1 of a riverfront park? (Albeit, a world class one!)

I think it is interesting because the Landing was perfect shell for the "Food Hall" craze. it got demolished right before it could have become an "Armature Works" type place. Just insane.

Have we spent $50 million+ so far? What would $25 million have done for the Landing? Renovated entire thing easily.

[CityLife]

I like riverfront plaza, but add up the price of demolition, lost property tax revenues, cost of new construction, etc and what is the total we have sunk into Phase 1 of a riverfront park? (Albeit, a world class one!)

I think it is interesting because the Landing was perfect shell for the "Food Hall" craze. it got demolished right before it could have become an "Armature Works" type place. Just insane.

Have we spent $50 million+ so far? What would $25 million have done for the Landing? Renovated entire thing easily.

We were well into the food hall craze when the Landing was demo'd. The Jaxon posted this article and probably others too. https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/so-jax-may-be-the-only-city-to-demolish-its-landing/

I know before demo I mentioned multiple times that The Landing would be far more successful if modified with more outdoor seating, better views, and a better tenant mix. My pitch was to make it a Best of Jax type place and get many of the good restaurants from the beach or other parts of town to have a stall there. I still think that would have been one of the best bang for your buck type projects the city could do downtown.

Speaking of Riverfront Plaza and active food/dining on the water, what is the status of the Beer Garden?

[thelakelander]

Tearing down the Landing set downtown back by a decade. It was one of the dumbest DT development decisions ever made in Jax history by people elected to serve locally. As predicted back then, we'll spend more than $100 million on Riverfront Plaza when its all said and the space will still stimulate less consistent foot traffic. What should have been a simple retrofit of an already active space ended up being a big opportunity loss. It will take some time to regenerate what was lost, so it will be good for the council to stop looking at the bone headed moves in a vacuum.