SunRail to Polk County

[thelakelander]

I think Ock has talked about the idea of an S-Line streetcar/LRT before. Although the thing that stands out to me is that JTA is currently looking into redoing their maintenance center operations, which would mean the opportunity to redevelop the Myrtle Avenue campus and reconnect the rail ROW from the downtown terminal through the S-Line to points north. It would be a lot more convenient to do that with a modern DMU like this that can meet FRA Alternative Compliance instead of a light rail vehicle (had an artist friend throw this together last year):

I was right there with Ock, talking about the benefits of a DMU type system for the S-Line back in 2005-2008ish, when we took down JTA's original BRT plan.



DMU demonstration in Jax back in 2007 - https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-commuter-rail-demonstration-visits-jacksonville

That pushback resulted in the old commuter rail study JTA finally did, after blowing $100 million in BJP money that was supposed to go to rapid transit. Its 2023, the faces at JTA and its board have long changed, but the direction to chase after risky dreams is closer to the Skyway planning days than at any other time in modern history.

We've discussed this here before but it seems a lot of the problem goes back to that we really screwed up by deciding to go for the peoplemover program, which has left us with a white elephant that we apparently can't tear down, can't upgrade normally, and can't leave as-is.

For me, blaming the Skyway has been nothing but bucking the blame of self incompetence. Some type of way, Miami found a way to make the Metromover and Metrorail work. They both were general failures until they overhauled their zoning ordinance and got aggressive with encouraging and stimulating dense development around their stations. We can do the same with the Skyway. For whatever reason, we've selected to do nothing but spend money dreaming and studying big, while refusing to invest in the little things like stimulating TOD around existing transit assets, moving the train station back downtown, etc. Now, we've skipped all of that basic stuff to wanting AV vehicles and a lower capacity system that has never been done in an urban environment before?!!!

And then we have a transit agency that has decided to abandon its primary responsibility to chase the glory of discovering self driving, and refuses to take no for an answer.

Totally crazy!!!!

[iMarvin]

Surface rail is cool but if you wanna get bold, go with automated light metro (not gonna stop mentioning this) and do a COMPLETE REBRAND of the Skyway.

Simply rebranding and upgrading the Skyway is the easiest and lowest hanging fruit we have to improving fixed transit in this town. Unfortunately, JTA is the biggest obstacle to it and literally everything else transit related. I have very little confidence in JTA pulling any type of commuter rail, LRT, streetcar, etc. off in my lifetime. As such, even Amtrak on its worst day will be more competent and more likely to pull something off Jax related. No matter what people think of them, they do exist, have done it before, and desire to expand in Florida. The stumbling block is Tallahassee. That place changes every 4 to 8 years, so the direction FDOT sways today could be very different in a few years.

This is... extremely depressing but also very true. There are just way too many good transit projects that will never happen if JTA remains the way it is. 

How do we advocate for a change of leadership in JTA, or for a new transit authority altogether?

[Jax_Developer]

We need some type of self-study with accredited professionals to do a community report, utilizing previous studies/plans with common-sense logic. It has been done before to bring awareness to items such as these in transition periods. The good thing about the local, state, federal step up is that there are guidelines & figures local governments have to just accept as reality. If those figures can prove xyz on a state or federal guideline level, maybe you'll get someone close to Donna, or Donna's, attention.

[marcuscnelson]

We need some type of self-study with accredited professionals to do a community report, utilizing previous studies/plans with common-sense logic. It has been done before to bring awareness to items such as these in transition periods. The good thing about the local, state, federal step up is that there are guidelines & figures local governments have to just accept as reality. If those figures can prove xyz on a state or federal guideline level, maybe you'll get someone close to Donna, or Donna's, attention.

I brought this up not too long ago, and agree. Some kind of analysis that brings together our transportation history, reports like the RTC's work, the LRTP, and previous studies, looks at where things currently are, and demonstrates a path forward to leverage local, state and federal dollars for useful transportation and economic development.

[thelakelander]

^That's the easy part. To get there, the political direction will have to change. For JTA and transit projects, I believe the boards will need a bit of overhauling and staff will need to be directed by those revamped boards, a bit more than they are today. Hopefully, this is an opportunity the Deegan administration will take advantage of.

[marcuscnelson]

While we're talking about JTA, here's a video they just released for their State of the Authority looking back at the last ten years: https://youtu.be/sLpt2BcD5AI

[Jax_Developer]

Marcus, I know that there are only a few people that view these videos. It's good to know you do too when I see stuff like this. I think we can both sit back and laugh at this content. Truly one of a kind.

[jaxlongtimer]

^That's the easy part. To get there, the political direction will have to change. For JTA and transit projects, I believe the boards will need a bit of overhauling and staff will need to be directed by those revamped boards, a bit more than they are today. Hopefully, this is an opportunity the Deegan administration will take advantage of.

Most of the authority boards are jokes... people appointed based on political connections and a willingness to be submissive to the officials that appointed them.  Those who accept and sincerely want to try and do the job are often in over their heads, lacking experience, expertise, energy, comprehension, time, etc. to be able to fully grasp the impact of the decisions they are asked to make.  Others are there only to support their self interests or benefit their friends.  Then, often, you have turnover after an election as Curry insisted on when he became mayor taking away the "long" view of board members.  Some may just be padding their resumes.  Add it all up, and you have rubber stamp or very weak boards that really offer no true oversight of the staff or the agency's mission.

Boards should have a mix of community perspectives, appropriate professional expertise from subject experts, legal, finance, etc. and should serve beyond the realm of politics and the whim of politicians who only care about their own agendas and wish to impose them on the agencies.

Also, having the governor appoint members to local boards should be changed.  Why should a governor have a say in local leadership of agencies that are just as impactful as any department or branch of City government.

Until changes are made to the above, expect the continued disappointment and bad decision making we have witnessed more times than not over the decades.

[marcuscnelson]

Marcus, I know that there are only a few people that view these videos. It's good to know you do too when I see stuff like this. I think we can both sit back and laugh at this content. Truly one of a kind.

Nat Ford makes more than the CEO of the New York MTA. If nothing else I suppose you have to hand that to him.

^That's the easy part. To get there, the political direction will have to change. For JTA and transit projects, I believe the boards will need a bit of overhauling and staff will need to be directed by those revamped boards, a bit more than they are today. Hopefully, this is an opportunity the Deegan administration will take advantage of.

Most of the authority boards are jokes... people appointed based on political connections and a willingness to be submissive to the officials that appointed them.  Those who accept and sincerely want to try and do the job are often in over their heads, lacking experience, expertise, energy, comprehension, time, etc. to be able to fully grasp the impact of the decisions they are asked to make.  Others are there only to support their self interests or benefit their friends.  Then, often, you have turnover after an election as Curry insisted on when he became mayor taking away the "long" view of board members.  Some may just be padding their resumes.  Add it all up, and you have rubber stamp or very weak boards that really offer no true oversight of the staff or the agency's mission.

Boards should have a mix of community perspectives, appropriate professional expertise from subject experts, legal, finance, etc. and should serve beyond the realm of politics and the whim of politicians who only care about their own agendas and wish to impose them on the agencies.

Also, having the governor appoint members to local boards should be changed.  Why should a governor have a say in local leadership of agencies that are just as impactful as any department or branch of City government.

Until changes are made to the above, expect the continued disappointment and bad decision making we have witnessed more times than not over the decades.

The natural challenge of appointed oversight/non-professional positions is that it is extremely easy for them to become patronage positions, rewards for support with little understanding of the underlying industry. Especially in a place with such little transit-riding culture like Jacksonville. And especially when it's so common for a board position to essentially be a hobby on the side of multiple other board seats and a day job instead of being a primary focus.

The reason JTA has gubernatorial appointments is that it's formally a state agency, not a city agency. It has a local impact but it's not formally subservient to the city beyond the appointments (and occasionally city taxes used to fund it).

Frankly, it'd be nice if Mayor Deegan could expect the mayoral appointees to resign, on account of the obvious need for people who understand transportation, but I don't expect that to happen.

[HeartofFlorida]

With construction underway on the final Phase 2 expansion to DeLand, FDOT is now hard at work on planning the next phase of SunRail: Polk County.

They've now held a virtual workshop: https://sunrailext.meetsyou.online/#/

They've also already completed an alternatives analysis that proposes initially expanding 16 miles to Haines City before later expanding into Lakeland. There don't seem to be details yet on how exactly such an expansion would work with CSX, especially given the known concerns the closer to Tampa one gets. Additionally, there are some potential questions as far as how Polk County would join SunRail, but presumably those are questions they have time to answer, especially since the expected start of operations at this time is 2035.

I'll believe a Sunrail expansion to Lakeland when I see it.  Ultimately, I think Lakeland's ambition for some type of rail service (aside from Amtrak) will not make it beyond Auburndale, if it even comes that far into Polk County.


I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen.  However, based on the proposed location of the new intermodal terminal in downtown Lakeland that would consolidate operations between Citrus Connection (bus), Amtrak (current station opened in '98), taxi/Rider sharing and whatever rail expansion may come, there's very little room for double tracking.  In downtown Lakeland alone, some properties (and buildings) are in very close proximity to the existing rail line, let alone a 2nd line and I don't foresee CSX allowing anything else potentially bottlenecking their operations between the Lakeland Wye and diamond junction in Auburndale.  That also could explain why CSX has yet to upgrade that portion of the S-Line.


I've been wrong before, lol.

[Florida Power And Light]

Frankly, it'd be nice if Mayor Deegan could expect the mayoral appointees to resign, on account of the obvious need for people who understand transportation, but I don't expect that to happen.
[/quote]

[marcuscnelson]

Frankly, it'd be nice if Mayor Deegan could expect the mayoral appointees to resign, on account of the obvious need for people who understand transportation, but I don't expect that to happen.

There is at least some turnover happening in the administration, obviously unclear whether boards will do the same. The former Director of Strategic Partnerships, Dawn Lockhart is leaving. Tracye Polson is taking that role.

[Charles Hunter]

In case anyone is interested in serving in the Deegan Administration:

Interested in joining a City Board?

Apply today with the Deegan Transition Team

Mayor-Elect Deegan is committed to every person having a voice in City Hall and a seat at the table. Her administration will be an inclusive one where they encourage collaboration between people from all walks of life and who look like Jacksonville.

To fulfill that pledge, Duval County residents can now apply to join several volunteer boards and commissions Deegan has the power to appoint individuals.

If you're interested, please submit a cover letter indicating the board you are interested in applying to at boards-commissions23@coj.net

Not sure what boards and commission are available? Don't worry, we have you covered. Check out the list of the city boards using the link below.

https://www.coj.net/departments/boards-and-commissions.aspx

[tufsu1]

With construction underway on the final Phase 2 expansion to DeLand, FDOT is now hard at work on planning the next phase of SunRail: Polk County.

They've now held a virtual workshop: https://sunrailext.meetsyou.online/#/

They've also already completed an alternatives analysis that proposes initially expanding 16 miles to Haines City before later expanding into Lakeland. There don't seem to be details yet on how exactly such an expansion would work with CSX, especially given the known concerns the closer to Tampa one gets. Additionally, there are some potential questions as far as how Polk County would join SunRail, but presumably those are questions they have time to answer, especially since the expected start of operations at this time is 2035.

I am very familiar with this effort - and, as of now, it is doubtful to proceed

[HeartofFlorida]

With construction underway on the final Phase 2 expansion to DeLand, FDOT is now hard at work on planning the next phase of SunRail: Polk County.

They've now held a virtual workshop: https://sunrailext.meetsyou.online/#/

They've also already completed an alternatives analysis that proposes initially expanding 16 miles to Haines City before later expanding into Lakeland. There don't seem to be details yet on how exactly such an expansion would work with CSX, especially given the known concerns the closer to Tampa one gets. Additionally, there are some potential questions as far as how Polk County would join SunRail, but presumably those are questions they have time to answer, especially since the expected start of operations at this time is 2035.

I am very familiar with this effort - and, as of now, it is doubtful to proceed

Right!  I'll believe it when I see it.