Downtown Vagrancy

[thelakelander]

I don't know if I'd call Miami Beach NIMBYs. Being a preservationist and designing a built environment to respect sense of place and character doesn't automatically equate to NIMBYism. Miami Beach still has higher density construction taking place that Jax can only dream about. There's just a bit more thought and intention into how those projects are integrated into that built environment. Locally, our issue is that there is no market for high-rise development in this low density town. There certainly places for it, when and if the market gets to a point where it can sufficiently support that style of development.  But make no doubt about it, we're small potatoes when comparing the market of South Florida, Tampa and Orlando as apples to apples. We fell off that wagon back in the 1980s and 90s and have yet to recover. NIMBYs are the least of our urban development  issues. We have a lot of infilling and growth to do before the numbers start making sense holistically. Vangrancy is definitely a problem that's growing though. However, I'm skeptical that it impacts downtown development here anymore than it does in peer communities.

[simms3]

^^^I don't think vagrancy impacts downtown development.  The people doing downtown development and the people who want to live downtown are going to do so regardless and many have also been elsewhere where vagrancy is so much worse.  Young renters in particular who want to experience the excitement of being in an urban setting are willing to put up with so much more, and it may even add to "the thrill" they seek.

But I do think downtown vagrancy and the medians around town playing host to so many homeless now has an impact on infill in other neighborhoods (namely apartments, townhomes, anything less than quarter acre single-family lots).  People associate that aspect with urban sprawl and density and "city issues" creeping in to their communities.

If we could get a handle on it, clean up the city a bit, then I think it would only help the cause of infilling Jax.

[vicupstate]

Vagrancy absolutely affects downtown development. It held back Columbia, SC for many years. Greenville's lack of vagrancy allowed it to rise above its peer cities in DT revitalization. It certainly wasn't the only factor in either city, but it played a part. 

Every time something is proposed DT, the article comments at the T-U website invariably say things like 'why would anybody invest in DT with so many homeless and so much crime'.   

[Jax_Developer]

It's hard to argue that development doesn't impact vagrancy. Downtown development is a small piece of the larger pie. The entire area is an eco system. Make it harder or undesirable to live near downtown and you bet downtown will suffer. That's why the 'real' urban planning folks are so interested in improving the baseline in Arlington, Springfield & Spring Park.

I think the larger argument here which I have seen over & over again is the idea that comparing us to south FL is bad & unrealistic idea. It's only unrealistic because it is made to be that way. Plenty of us have a vision for JAX but what many of us don't understand is that now is the time. JAX is all over the news in a positive light. You either take the absolute boom and capitalize on it or you do what we are doing right now and sit & talk about an ideal. I bet most of those homeless folks were displaced by the massive population boom we have had.

Nothing is ideal in real estate. You will always find someone upset at what's been done. And sorry to say but any large scale project in JAX is designed and sometimes built by South Florida and Atlanta based firms. Makes no difference to them where the project is located. It makes a huge difference when you realize what & how they are being constrained to build. Jax need to catch up to 21st century planning practices. Cough cough 2045 comprehensive plan.

[Jax_Developer]

I don't know if I'd call Miami Beach NIMBYs. Being a preservationist and designing a built environment to respect sense of place and character doesn't automatically equate to NIMBYism. Miami Beach still has higher density construction taking place that Jax can only dream about. There's just a bit more thought and intention into how those projects are integrated into that built environment. Locally, our issue is that there is no market for high-rise development in this low density town. There certainly places for it, when and if the market gets to a point where it can sufficiently support that style of development.  But make no doubt about it, we're small potatoes when comparing the market of South Florida, Tampa and Orlando as apples to apples. We fell off that wagon back in the 1980s and 90s and have yet to recover. NIMBYs are the least of our urban development  issues. We have a lot of infilling and growth to do before the numbers start making sense holistically. Vangrancy is definitely a problem that's growing though. However, I'm skeptical that it impacts downtown development here anymore than it does in peer communities.

I know several plp who would laugh at the idea that Miami Beach isn't Nimby. There are a few very well connected firms/plp that do most of the development there. Not necessarily CA nimby, but its a version of it. Ask anyone who has tried building there.

[Tacachale]

I don't know if I'd call Miami Beach NIMBYs. Being a preservationist and designing a built environment to respect sense of place and character doesn't automatically equate to NIMBYism. Miami Beach still has higher density construction taking place that Jax can only dream about. There's just a bit more thought and intention into how those projects are integrated into that built environment. Locally, our issue is that there is no market for high-rise development in this low density town. There certainly places for it, when and if the market gets to a point where it can sufficiently support that style of development.  But make no doubt about it, we're small potatoes when comparing the market of South Florida, Tampa and Orlando as apples to apples. We fell off that wagon back in the 1980s and 90s and have yet to recover. NIMBYs are the least of our urban development  issues. We have a lot of infilling and growth to do before the numbers start making sense holistically. Vangrancy is definitely a problem that's growing though. However, I'm skeptical that it impacts downtown development here anymore than it does in peer communities.

I know several plp who would laugh at the idea that Miami Beach isn't Nimby. There are a few very well connected firms/plp that do most of the development there. Not necessarily CA nimby, but its a version of it. Ask anyone who has tried building there.

I think the difference is that in California, the system structurally encourages NIMBYs. Decisions are made on the hyperlocal level and it's easy for a few dedicated advocates to do things like stop developments, maintain onerous zoning laws, railroad local governments trying to build affordable housing (which state law requires them to do). It's essentially twisting home rule into creating a housing crisis. This is why the state is now having to come in and not only pass statewide requirements for zoning and affordable housing, but enforcing them.

In Florida it's not as much of a structural problem. For better for worse, it's harder for a few people to turn back development when they're approved or within the proper zoning. Even something like the bill legalizing ADUs was easier in a city like Jacksonville than anywhere in California. This comes with its own risks of course.

Of course you do see NIMBYs in Florida as you do everywhere, and in some cases they do exert a lot of power. The Jax Beaches are one area where that's the case. They've turned the reasonable goal of not having massive skyscrapers into not having anything bigger than a three-story house. In one case in Neptune Beach, NIMBYs successfully fought off a development that would have turned the obsolete K-mart into a mixed-use walkable housing development. The zoning also discourages further missing-middle housing and encourages buildings that do have it to get rid of it. And lo and behold, housing costs at the Beach are higher than pretty much anywhere else in town.

Unsurprisingly, I'm with Ennis that stopping certain types of developments and putting in reasonable restrictions isn't a bad thing. At the Beaches specifically, historic preservation and smart planning would have preserved and expanded a lot of the missing-middle housing that's now being destroyed. It would also have added a lot more character than the generic single-family subdivisions and strip malls that have taken over. The plus side is there are plenty more areas of Jacksonville where those things can work.

[JPalmer]

Timely article on St. John's County dealing with the homeless issue.  Short term, sheriff wants to build a camp for them until a more permanent solution is built.

An encampment to create a concentration of the homeless population?  Where have I heard this before....

[jaxlongtimer]

In no way do I support building Miami condos in Jax beach. 35' is 3-stories. Good luck building up any inventory. Plenty of other beach towns have higher buildings. It will become an elite area very soon, if not already.

Have you ever actually been to Miami Beach? There aren't that many towers and the ones that are there don't block the coast at all. Also, do you actually think there's any demand for giant condo towers in Jax Beach? There's empty lots all over...

Jax Beach (and Jacksonville in general) could actually learn a lot from Miami Beach. The Boardwalk, Lincoln Road, and Lummus Park are all incredible, just to name a few things.

Have you? Ever heard of Sunny Isles Beach? Miami Beach, to be uber uber specific, has several 30+ story buildings. There are several historic districts if that's what you are referencing? Not sure we are going to the same Miami beach.

Would there be demand? Heard of the Azure on JAX Beach? I think there would be considering they are UC for $1,000psf+... What do I know though. They also literally enacted legislation against this or you'd see several condo projects east of A1A.

For all you environmentalist, building up reduces the impact on wetlands, storm drainage congestion, and cutting down more trees. Please also consider that a 5-story building is not even close to a hi-rise. There is a large jump from 3-story homes & light commercial to "Miami condo towers."

Speaking of Sunny Isles....

A look inside a $22.5 million Miami condo with insane luxury amenities

....The beachfront neighborhood only spans about 1.8 square miles — for that size there's a remarkable 16 high-end condominium residences vying for buyers with units priced north of $10 million....

...."The skyline of Sunny Isles Beach features some of the most exciting towers in all of Miami, and it has become a destination where developers can experiment with architecture, branded concepts and amenities," said Dezer.....

....."Sunny Isles Beach sometimes feels like Dubai meets Vegas on the ocean — in only the best ways," Adzem told CNBC.

According to public records, the neighborhood's top recent sales included a $27 million deal at the Estates at Aqualina in 2021, which combined two penthouse units at just over $3,100 a square foot, and a $23.5 million penthouse that traded last year at Jade Signature for about $1,840 a square foot.

The three most expensive listings currently on the market are all also at the Estates at Aqualina: the highest priced is an $85 million residence that spans 15,000 square feet across four stories and delivers seven bedrooms and nine and half baths, according to the Multiple Listing Service....







....Dezer has planned a similar automobile elevator for his yet-to-be-built, 63-story Bentley Residences where each home will have multi-unit in-sky parking as well as its own pool.

The project is being marketed as the tallest beachfront residential tower in America. Among the planned amenities is a fine-dining restaurant, whiskey bar, spa, gym and landscaped gardens.... 





https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/09/miami-condo-insane-luxury-amenities.html?&qsearchterm=sunny%20condo

[Florida Power And Light]

I was born in Miami Beach.
Childhood neighborhood was Miami Beach and North Miami.
Governor DeSantis Promotes Florida as America Ideal.
Skip it.
I miss the Miami I once knew. The thought of Returning There is as caustic as going to the Orange Park Mall.
Goodbye Jacksonville Downtown " Vibrancy" .
Thirty years here , so hopeful for Downtown....and...... Moving Out.
All you can post here about Miami is Phallic Concrete Structure Thrusting to the Sky. Screw the tree line..... Light.
" Metro" Jacksonville outlook .
We get the Places we Deserve.