Downtown Vagrancy

[Ken_FSU]

Anyone else feel like downtown vagrancy is getting worse in the last few months in the northbank core?

I've always been of the opinion that the homeless "problem" downtown is way overblown and that people are too quick to equate homelessness with danger.

But man, it feels like I'm encountering more and more people lately who seem genuinely unhinged.

Less, "I feel like this guy has had a rough life and probably has some mental health issues," and more, "I wonder if this dude screaming obscenities at the air and lunging at shadows is going to stab me as I walk down Hogan Street.

When you work downtown every day for long enough, you start to recognize the regular homeless crowd, taking advantage of the missions, hanging out in the park, walking around mumbling or sleeping on the sidewalks.

Feels like I'm starting to see a lot of new, angrier folk that I've never seen before. Appearing, at least on the surface, to be more clearly mentally unhealthy and/or under the influence.

[Steve]

Absolutely agree, unfortunately.

I feel like every time someone brings it up, it's like if they're saying we need to do something about it than others are like, "you're being insensitive to the homeless."

But, both can be true: You can be sensitive to the homeless and recognize that throwing them in Jail isn't the overall answer, while still recognizing it's become a MUCH bigger problem since Covid started.

[Ken_FSU]

^So much, this.

It can be hard to address and discuss without appearing insensitive.

So many external factors play in to homelessness and vagrancy, including mental health and socioeconomics, and I genuinely feel bad for people who find themselves on the streets due to circumstance.

That said, there's also this growing, kinda of ominous vibe on the streets sometimes that I haven't really felt since I started working down here in 2017. Kinda feels like we're marching toward a tragedy somewhere.

[simms3]

I've noticed the same.  I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying?  Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days.  Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.

The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet.  If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large.  Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.

Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.

[acme54321]

It's out of control.  The riverwalk corkscrew turns into a hobo motel at dusk.  Last week I saw a lady sitting on a bench at the top just smoking a crack pipe like it wasn't a thing.  A couple weeks before that I was on my bike downtown and one of them had stolen the top jar from Spliffs and was running down the street with it being chased by staff. 

The city needs to do something, insensitive or not I don't care.  It's absolutely a major problem for bringing people downtown.  Noone wants to deal with that.

[Tacachale]

Yes, the issue is getting worse. The main culprit is the housing crisis and vastly increasing rents. It's not only a Jax or Florida problem but it's especially acute here due to the high population growth and too little supply.

I've noticed the same.  I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying?  Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days.  Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.

The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet.  If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large.  Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.

Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.

The West Coast has a worse homeless crisis because they have a worse housing crisis. It has nothing to do with "homeless advocacy", and it'll affect us soon enough. Considering the far lower incomes, Florida's housing unaffordability is already as bad as California's, and the problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Tacachale]

If you want the problem fixed, talk to your state, local and federal representatives. Local zoning is the main culprit behind the housing crisis nationwide. In Florida, successive legislatures have also gutted the Sadowski Trust for affordable housing.

[/soapbox]

[thelakelander]

It's getting worse everywhere. The scene in Downtown San Diego two weeks ago:

[Ken_FSU]

So, I guess what I don't understand is this:

Zero doubt that Jacksonville, like many other metros, is at absolute crisis level in terms of affordable housing.

But why do so many of downtown Jax's new homeless disproportionately appear to be either:

1) Visibly under the influence, or addicted to, very heavy drugs
2) Or, stark-raving insane

I mean, no shades of gray. In the last week alone, I've seen a gentleman with track marks on his arms whispering up a tree. I've seen a woman walking backward into heavy traffic and nearly getting run over mumbling to herself. I've seen a man stalking Hogan Street shouting to the air that he was going to "fuck you up if you don't keep walking." I've seen a guy laying in front of the Main Library eating a paper bag.

With the qualification that there's obviously a socioeconomic element to substance abuse and a causal connection between homelessness and drug abuse definitely exists, it feels like what we're seeing in the northbank core in the last few months is as much a drug problem as it is a housing problem.

Do we posit that the addicts (or deeply disturbed mentally to the point that they appear under the influence) turning downtown into The Last of Us as of late are newly homeless or displaced?

Do we posit that it's a fentanyl/meth/crack problem, with cheap street drugs becoming more widely available in the region?

I feel like I've got a pretty long post history here dismissing opinions that homelessness and safety are a genuine problem downtown relative other cities, or even other areas in Jax like Five Points, but it's kind of gotten to the point where I genuinely worry about young employees walking to the parking garage alone after work.

Feels like the police have been a little more of a non-presence as well, particularly after 5.

[vicupstate]

Coincidental, I came across this article a couple of hours before reading this thread. It speaks to virtually every item spoken about here.

Everything you think you know about Homelessness is wrong

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

[Ken_FSU]

Coincidental, I came across this article a couple of hours before reading this thread. It speaks to virtually every item spoken about here.

Everything you think you know about Homelessness is wrong

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Really, really interesting stuff.

Thanks for posting, Vic.

Pretty wild stat from the article:

"The best evidence suggests that a 10% rise in housing costs in a pricey city prompts an 8% jump in homelessness."

Any idea what the gap looks like in Jax particularly between affordable housing supply and need/demand?

[fsu813]

Coincidental, I came across this article a couple of hours before reading this thread. It speaks to virtually every item spoken about here.

Everything you think you know about Homelessness is wrong

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

The is substack post is a very academic/naive perspective on the issue. Saying "just add housing" to dramatically decrease homelessness isn't a honest representation.

A few points:

> The housing needs to be cheap or free, open to recent evictions, open to all types of criminal records, open to accepting vouchers or non-traditional payment, lenient with timing of rent payments, lenient with behaviors of tenants, and patient with the tenant and program (assuming there is one) which is paying rent for the tenant. You'll notice our local homeless advocacy leaders don't ask for housing, they ask for "deeply affordable housing" which is short hand for the list of ideal housing qualities above.

> Even with free or discounted housing, these tenants often require significant managing to stay housed. That means staff. Staff, especially effective staff, are a large expense not factored in most projections.

> Most homeless people aren't the ones camping on sidewalks or acting crazy in public. Most you'd never notice, because they sleep in their car, couch surf, find a secluded area, or stay at a shelter and their behavior isn't abnormal. The homeless people you tend to notice in public often do have mental health/substance abuse/chronic poor judgment issues. They're not the majority, but they're obvious and high needs.

Sure, if you just add a bunch of new housing units to X area, there's bound to be some existing housing that gets devalued enough to accept most of my first bullet point. Sort of like trickle down economics.... trickle down housing. Housing created intentionally for this type of tenant is less attractive to do, but needed more than just adding generic housing, as the substack presents.

[vicupstate]

^^

The article is basically saying that 1) a simple lack of affordable housing is the lion share of the problem and 2) while mental illness, addiction, etc. are all components of the problem, even if/when those issues are addressed, those same folks are still not going to be able to afford housing regardless.

That Houston has reduced Homelessness by 60% since 2011 is pretty astounding, particularly when that is the same period that housing got so much more unaffordable in a vast swath of the country. Perhaps a deep dive on that city would be beneficial to solving this very complex problem.  I have to wonder if the famously zoning-free aspect of Houston has facilitated their solutions.  NIMBY opposition to higher density seems to play a big part in unaffordability generally.     

[fsu813]

^^

The article is basically saying that 1) a simple lack of affordable housing is the lion share of the problem and 2) while mental illness, addiction, etc. are all components of the problem, even if/when those issues are addressed, those same folks are still not going to be able to afford housing regardless.

There in lies the rub.

Most homeless people aren't problematic and are relatively invisible.

A smaller potion of homeless people are very visible and problematic.

So, there's a simple fix* for the invisible problem, no simple fix for the visible problem.

*simple in theory.

[simms3]

Yes, the issue is getting worse. The main culprit is the housing crisis and vastly increasing rents. It's not only a Jax or Florida problem but it's especially acute here due to the high population growth and too little supply.

I've noticed the same.  I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying?  Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days.  Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.

The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet.  If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large.  Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.

Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.

The West Coast has a worse homeless crisis because they have a worse housing crisis. It has nothing to do with "homeless advocacy", and it'll affect us soon enough. Considering the far lower incomes, Florida's housing unaffordability is already as bad as California's, and the problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

This is absolutely not true and a myth.  I'm not saying there's *no* homeless people/families that were "priced out".  BUT I lived in the Tenderloin in San Francisco for 2 years and got pretty acquainted with the world famous homeless population there, both from volunteering and from living.  I also developed a drug problem myself out there - hard drugs.  I nearly lived that life myself.  All from my own choices.  I lived within a half mile of 36 needle exchanges and the politics there absolutely encourages it.  Nearly NONE of the homeless people there were from San Francisco and 100% of them were on hard drugs, often meth.

Additionally nearly 100% of all housing starts in SF for the past 5 years have been affordable housing and housing for "formerly homeless".  The homelessness gets worse and worse no matter how many units are built.  It's not a housing problem, but a spiritual problem.  Many of the homeless on the street in SF actually had a home, as well, believe it or not.

Just giving a meth/fentanyl addict a home does not prevent said addict from being on the street and going insane (and in my opinion being possessed).  I am a born again Christian, and took a HARD turn to the Lord.  I was literally running around from my demons on the streets there and was helped by Catholic priests when I seeked that help, realizing the hard way that the devil is real and I needed the Lord to save me.  I took 2 RCIA classes and became a convert, and I'm a dedicated practicing Catholic to this day, completely clean, homeowner, good job, productive contributing citizen rescued from the HELL that is San Francisco (and unfortunately so many big cities today).  When a culture is rotten, it's easy to take a wrong turn and suffer hard consequences.

There is a massive drug problem impacting our country.  There is total moral and cultural rot that is affecting our cities, and it's even more widespread than that now.  There is a true spiritual battle out there.  As more and more people have turned away from the Lord, look at the downward slope we are all on.  There is a massive misguided moral dilemma that is absolutely increasing our homeless population.

When I talk to anyone above the age of 55 they recall a time in our cities when there simply weren't homeless people, but there was also better enforcement of "loitering laws" and other laws too that just held people to a higher standard.  Lots more people went to church and put their faith and trust in the Lord.  There's just too much evidence out there for this, but it is prophesied over and over in the Bible "although they claimed to be wise they became fools".

Having dealt with the epicenter of zombiism myself, I refuse to cave into these misguided principles that it's all people just priced out and they just can't work.  I pass too many healthy looking men on medians around this city who CAN work but DON'T.  That's not something I'm looking to solve by just giving my hard-worked tax dollars over to a home for them (which won't actually help them).  They need fixing first, and it starts with fixing the addiction and the heart/soul.