Sports Complex

[Ken_FSU]

Post-vaccine, work travel has picked way back up for me and I've been bouncing between cities a lot again. Was back in Nashville on Saturday, and the game-night scene downtown for the Predators was just electric. Ditto on Sunday morning for the Titans game. Have experienced similar scenes in other multiple cities as of late.

It's got me noticing just how much sports stadiums contribute to the overall vibrancy of downtown areas and how we've kind of left that synergy on the table to clustering TIAA Bank Field, the Baseball Grounds, Vet Memorial, and Daily's Place so far from the CBD.

I get that there's efficiencies to be gained with shared parking facilities, but it just feels like such a wasted opportunity to have all of our major facilities so far removed from the true downtown core and not contributing to foot traffic in the central core.

Am I crazy to think that building the Baseball Grounds in LaVilla, for example, would have been transformational for the neighborhood? Or in Springfield? Or finding a location for the arena 10 blocks west?

Question for you guys.

If you could relocate each of our three major sports facilities to somewhere else in the city where you think they'd have a greater impact, where would it be? Answer could just as easily be that they're properly located as is.

[landfall]

Post-vaccine, work travel has picked way back up for me and I've been bouncing between cities a lot again. Was back in Nashville on Saturday, and the game-night scene downtown for the Predators was just electric. Ditto on Sunday morning for the Titans game. Have experienced similar scenes in other multiple cities as of late.

It's got me noticing just how much sports stadiums contribute to the overall vibrancy of downtown areas and how we've kind of left that synergy on the table to clustering TIAA Bank Field, the Baseball Grounds, Vet Memorial, and Daily's Place so far from the CBD.

I get that there's efficiencies to be gained with shared parking facilities, but it just feels like such a wasted opportunity to have all of our major facilities so far removed from the true downtown core and not contributing to foot traffic in the central core.

Am I crazy to think that building the Baseball Grounds in LaVilla, for example, would have been transformational for the neighborhood? Or in Springfield? Or finding a location for the arena 10 blocks west?

Question for you guys.

If you could relocate each of our three major sports facilities to somewhere else in the city where you think they'd have a greater impact, where would it be? Answer could just as easily be that they're properly located as is.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem where the venues are I think in Jax. The problem is the lack of amenities around the venues which in essence then just encourages people to tailgate (if at all) and then leave straight after, so whilst these are urban stadiums you're encouraging suburban habits. It's why despite the rip off that it was I didn't hugely oppose Lot J and am quite happy to reconsider it.

Sports venues are not the ones of old built miles away in the suburbs with nothing but a sea of parking. They're all in on the development game now and have been quite successful and despite the often ridiculous public asks for funds they are contributing a lot more than they once did and obviously are a big economic driver for the hospitality industry.

This is why I would hate to see the Jags ever disappear to SJC or the like. A stadium in Bartram Park or Durbin Creek would be a pitiful waste and thankfully that type of thing is never going to happen.

The two remaining older stock suburban stadiums in the mid-smaller metros are the Chiefs and the Bills. I went to Arrowhead a few years ago without a car and it's frankly a garbage experience. Nothing nearby apart from a taco bell, a gas station and one or two crappy hotels. Also very difficult to get to. Really designed for tailgating and nothing else.

[fieldafm]

Post-vaccine, work travel has picked way back up for me and I've been bouncing between cities a lot again. Was back in Nashville on Saturday, and the game-night scene downtown for the Predators was just electric. Ditto on Sunday morning for the Titans game. Have experienced similar scenes in other multiple cities as of late.

It's got me noticing just how much sports stadiums contribute to the overall vibrancy of downtown areas and how we've kind of left that synergy on the table to clustering TIAA Bank Field, the Baseball Grounds, Vet Memorial, and Daily's Place so far from the CBD.

I get that there's efficiencies to be gained with shared parking facilities, but it just feels like such a wasted opportunity to have all of our major facilities so far removed from the true downtown core and not contributing to foot traffic in the central core.

Am I crazy to think that building the Baseball Grounds in LaVilla, for example, would have been transformational for the neighborhood? Or in Springfield? Or finding a location for the arena 10 blocks west?

Question for you guys.

If you could relocate each of our three major sports facilities to somewhere else in the city where you think they'd have a greater impact, where would it be? Answer could just as easily be that they're properly located as is.

A Phillip Randolph WAS a functioning commercial district. Most of that has been torn down. So the flip side is that perhaps designing around something that is already there in a complementary way is more beneficial than tearing it all down, half-assing it for multiple decades with spotty new infill, and then wondering why an area isn't vibrant... is probably, stupid at best.  There's no reason that the sports complex couldn't have integrated itself better with APR instead of tearing down stuff for the Fairgrounds/Wolfson Park, tearing stuff down for the BJP facilities, and then tearing more stuff down still today.

If adaptive reuse was the preferred route, then APR could have an authentic sense of place like Gaslamp in San Diego, or emerging redevelopment in places like Summerhill and South Downtown Atlanta 

Most of this is now gone.  Would have made prime redevelopment opportunities to breathe life into a neighborhood that needs employment opportunities, new housing and economic development:

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/48-years-after-the-eastside-riot-of-1969/


San Diego


Atlanta

[thelakelander]

Given the time that they were built, the arena and/or ballpark would have been more beneficial if located where the courthouse is. In any event, as time has gone on, I believe they're fine where located. Vibrancy is negatively impacted because we blew the neighborhood up around them. Instead of warehouse lofts, restaurants, nightlife and retail in historic buildings like Doro, we razed that walkable setting for expressways, parking garages and parking lots. At this point, the stadium investment has been made. Now we'll need to rebuild and reconnect the Eastside neighborhood the stadium district replaced. Jax will need to think bigger than what the Jags, Mayor's Office and DIA have so far. Success there is just as much reliant on reconnecting to the neighborhood north of it, as it is to the downtown one mile west of it.

[fieldafm]

Jax will need to think bigger than what the Jags, Mayor's Office and DIA have so far. Success there is just as much reliant on reconnecting to the neighborhood north of it, as it is to the downtown one mile west of it.

Bingo

[Charles Hunter]

Would you use the Reconnecting Communities funds in the new Infrastructure Law in the Sports Complex / A Phillip Randolph area?  If so, how? It seems that the Matthews Expressway at grade, even if a "boulevard" would be nearly as dividing as the elevated roadway. Perhaps embracing the elevation, and rebuilding so the entire length is elevated, and then using the 'under' space for community amenities, as other cities have done (Orlando with I-4 downtown?).

[Jagsdrew]

Post-vaccine, work travel has picked way back up for me and I've been bouncing between cities a lot again. Was back in Nashville on Saturday, and the game-night scene downtown for the Predators was just electric. Ditto on Sunday morning for the Titans game. Have experienced similar scenes in other multiple cities as of late.

It's got me noticing just how much sports stadiums contribute to the overall vibrancy of downtown areas and how we've kind of left that synergy on the table to clustering TIAA Bank Field, the Baseball Grounds, Vet Memorial, and Daily's Place so far from the CBD.

I get that there's efficiencies to be gained with shared parking facilities, but it just feels like such a wasted opportunity to have all of our major facilities so far removed from the true downtown core and not contributing to foot traffic in the central core.

Am I crazy to think that building the Baseball Grounds in LaVilla, for example, would have been transformational for the neighborhood? Or in Springfield? Or finding a location for the arena 10 blocks west?

Question for you guys.

If you could relocate each of our three major sports facilities to somewhere else in the city where you think they'd have a greater impact, where would it be? Answer could just as easily be that they're properly located as is.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem where the venues are I think in Jax. The problem is the lack of amenities around the venues which in essence then just encourages people to tailgate (if at all) and then leave straight after, so whilst these are urban stadiums you're encouraging suburban habits. It's why despite the rip off that it was I didn't hugely oppose Lot J and am quite happy to reconsider it.

Sports venues are not the ones of old built miles away in the suburbs with nothing but a sea of parking. They're all in on the development game now and have been quite successful and despite the often ridiculous public asks for funds they are contributing a lot more than they once did and obviously are a big economic driver for the hospitality industry.

This is why I would hate to see the Jags ever disappear to SJC or the like. A stadium in Bartram Park or Durbin Creek would be a pitiful waste and thankfully that type of thing is never going to happen.

The two remaining older stock suburban stadiums in the mid-smaller metros are the Chiefs and the Bills. I went to Arrowhead a few years ago without a car and it's frankly a garbage experience. Nothing nearby apart from a taco bell, a gas station and one or two crappy hotels. Also very difficult to get to. Really designed for tailgating and nothing else.

You can add Houston to that list of stadiums that have nothing around it.

[WarDamJagFan]

Miami's Hard Rock Stadium has a Walmart close by, so another stadium that clearly has a lot going on around it.  Gilette stadium is nowhere near downtown Boston but they've added amenities around it. It is still very possible for the sports complex here to be a fun area with more to offer than maximum surface parking lot boredom.

[Steve]

It seems like some markets do a true Downtown stadium, where getting in/out can be a challenge but there's plenty to do. Examples are found a little more in Baseball, with places like San Diego (Padres), Baltimore (Orioles, and Ravens to a degree), and San Francisco (Giants) coming to mind. Other markets are way out in the burbs, such as Kansas City (Royals and Chiefs), Houston (Texans), and New York (Giants/Jets) coming to mind. There's usually good parking and getting in and out is usually easy, but there isn't much to do around the stadium NATURALLY. I say naturally, because markets like Atlanta and New England have built up the area around it. This is easier to do in Baseball when you have 81 home games; harder in football. One of the reasons that Patriot Place works is the Foxborough, MA area had a market need for something like a St. John's Town Center. anyway.

We've gone the third direction - adjacent to downtown, but not easily walkable. It's not a terrible walk from APR to JWJ Park, but it's a bit long. The ones that come to mind there are St. Louis and to a degree Philadelphia. Thus....I see why they developed what they developed in Ballpark Village and Xfinity Live. Like Lakelander said, I wish the Stadium/Arena was in the core....but we're not moving it now.

I still think you can go the route of a master planned, "urban" retail development AND establish genuine connectivity to the Eastside, which if done right would be beneficial for both the Eastside and Sports Complex

[Captain Zissou]

Not commenting on the current state of the entertainment district, but for 2 of the home games I've gone to Strings afterward and have found it to be very busy with Jag fans.  It's one of the easier to get to and easier parking establishments after a game and it definitely benefits from its proximity to the stadium.  I park on the east side of the stadium, so I have not tried to go to intuition after a game but I imagine they do very well on gamedays. 

[Steve]

Not commenting on the current state of the entertainment district, but for 2 of the home games I've gone to Strings afterward and have found it to be very busy with Jag fans.  It's one of the easier to get to and easier parking establishments after a game and it definitely benefits from its proximity to the stadium.  I park on the east side of the stadium, so I have not tried to go to intuition after a game but I imagine they do very well on gamedays. 

I've been to Intuition after the game - my feeling is they do just fine. Not as busy as before the game, but certainly busy.

To me though, having these places busy on "Full Stadium Events" (Jags Games, Monster Jam, Florida/Georgia) isn't the goal - that really better happen anyway.

What I want is for the places to be at least profitable on a random concert or Shrimp Game, or on a Thursday night where there's nothing going on.

[thelakelander]

Would you use the Reconnecting Communities funds in the new Infrastructure Law in the Sports Complex / A Phillip Randolph area?  If so, how? It seems that the Matthews Expressway at grade, even if a "boulevard" would be nearly as dividing as the elevated roadway. Perhaps embracing the elevation, and rebuilding so the entire length is elevated, and then using the 'under' space for community amenities, as other cities have done (Orlando with I-4 downtown?).

I would. Doing such would help with the flow of Hogans Creek and relieve much of the flooding associated with it. As of now, that culvert under the expressway just clogs flow. It would also allow for the Emerald Trail to be properly designed through there and repair much of the grid in the Eastside and Fairfield. An at-grade boulevard could also have some linear green space throughout the corridor and allow for the development of a new mixed-use "front door" to both the Eastside and the Sports and Entertainment District. The intersection at A. Philip Randolph Boulevard could be much more than it is today.

[marcuscnelson]

Would you use the Reconnecting Communities funds in the new Infrastructure Law in the Sports Complex / A Phillip Randolph area?  If so, how? It seems that the Matthews Expressway at grade, even if a "boulevard" would be nearly as dividing as the elevated roadway. Perhaps embracing the elevation, and rebuilding so the entire length is elevated, and then using the 'under' space for community amenities, as other cities have done (Orlando with I-4 downtown?).

I would. Doing such would help with the flow of Hogans Creek and relieve much of the flooding associated with it. As of now, that culvert under the expressway just clogs flow. It would also allow for the Emerald Trail to be properly designed through there and repair much of the grid in the Eastside and Fairfield. An at-grade boulevard could also have some linear green space throughout the corridor and allow for the development of a new mixed-use "front door" to both the Eastside and the Sports and Entertainment District. The intersection at A. Philip Randolph Boulevard could be much more than it is today.

A "West Arlington Boulevard" (which would probably just be Beaver St) would only be divisive if you designed it to be. If we weren't afraid to slow the cars down going through, and made sure to provide room for transit and sidewalks, it could absolutely work. Especially with the Fairgrounds moving, the intersection of Beaver and APR could be absolutely incredible.

[Ken_FSU]

Post-vaccine, work travel has picked way back up for me and I've been bouncing between cities a lot again. Was back in Nashville on Saturday, and the game-night scene downtown for the Predators was just electric. Ditto on Sunday morning for the Titans game. Have experienced similar scenes in other multiple cities as of late.

It's got me noticing just how much sports stadiums contribute to the overall vibrancy of downtown areas and how we've kind of left that synergy on the table to clustering TIAA Bank Field, the Baseball Grounds, Vet Memorial, and Daily's Place so far from the CBD.

I get that there's efficiencies to be gained with shared parking facilities, but it just feels like such a wasted opportunity to have all of our major facilities so far removed from the true downtown core and not contributing to foot traffic in the central core.

Am I crazy to think that building the Baseball Grounds in LaVilla, for example, would have been transformational for the neighborhood? Or in Springfield? Or finding a location for the arena 10 blocks west?

Question for you guys.

If you could relocate each of our three major sports facilities to somewhere else in the city where you think they'd have a greater impact, where would it be? Answer could just as easily be that they're properly located as is.

A Phillip Randolph WAS a functioning commercial district. Most of that has been torn down. So the flip side is that perhaps designing around something that is already there in a complementary way is more beneficial than tearing it all down, half-assing it for multiple decades with spotty new infill, and then wondering why an area isn't vibrant... is probably, stupid at best.  There's no reason that the sports complex couldn't have integrated itself better with APR instead of tearing down stuff for the Fairgrounds/Wolfson Park, tearing stuff down for the BJP facilities, and then tearing more stuff down still today.

If adaptive reuse was the preferred route, then APR could have an authentic sense of place like Gaslamp in San Diego, or emerging redevelopment in places like Summerhill and South Downtown Atlanta 

Most of this is now gone.  Would have made prime redevelopment opportunities to breathe life into a neighborhood that needs employment opportunities, new housing and economic development:

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/48-years-after-the-eastside-riot-of-1969/


San Diego


Atlanta

Man, this is depressing.

Really interesting share, thanks.

The destruction elsewhere downtown and in neighborhoods like LaVilla is well documented, but had no idea how much of the Eastside had been razed.

Broken record, but all this needless destruction is another thing that makes me depressed when I visit other vibrant cities. You just see block after block after block of historic building stock in other cities, full of charm and character, with street-level uses, and we just don't have that in large quantity here anymore. We've got pockets here and there on streets like Laura and Bay, all separated by countless surface parking lots, block-sized parking garages without retail, officer towers and government buildings that don't interact with the street, etc. Feels like we've destroyed so much of our density that we're going to have to rely on generic infill over decades to get it back.

[fieldafm]

Broken record, but all this needless destruction is another thing that makes me depressed when I visit other vibrant cities. You just see block after block after block of historic building stock in other cities, full of charm and character, with street-level uses, and we just don't have that in large quantity here anymore. We've got pockets here and there on streets like Laura and Bay, all separated by countless surface parking lots, block-sized parking garages without retail, officer towers and government buildings that don't interact with the street, etc. Feels like we've destroyed so much of our density that we're going to have to rely on generic infill over decades to get it back.

Any new infill along this stretch now would largely be impossible to replicate what was once there.  Zoning requires parking for new development on the Eastside of the Matthews Expressway (even though there are empty parking garages just a few blocks away).  Assemblage and construction costs makes smaller, two/three story mixed use buildings largely economically unfeasible.  Due to material costs, the type of architectural treatments that defined these lost buildings are a frilly expense that negatively effects your proforma.  Etc, etc, etc.


So this



Will largely replace something like this (Cabbagetown in Atlanta... very comparable to the Eastside neighborhood in Iax)





More before/after to get a handle on what was lost, and the nothing that replaced it...

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jacksonvilles-eastside-then-and-now/