Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....

[jaxlongtimer]

.....DOGE Committee Chairman Ron Salem said he supports the city having independent authorities such as JTA but that only works if board members are engaged and ready to ask pointed questions. He said the city "went through hell" in 2019 during the attempted sale of JEA when board members for the city-owned utility didn't provide adequate oversight.

He said JTA board members should not "go along to get along as what happened in 2019."

"I just can't emphasize that enough," Salem said.

City Council member Chris Miller added those questions by the JTA board should be asked and answered during public meetings, not in private sessions "behind closed doors" where individual board members speak to JTA management....

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2025/11/04/new-jta-autonomous-shuttles-face-questions-by-duval-doge/87090347007/

What is the world coming to when I totally agree with the MAGA crowd on the Council regarding this issue.  They are right-on that the JTA board is totally complicit in this boondoggle.  They are apparently appointed to only "go along, get along" with JTA... not to question anything no matter how outrageous.  Would think they would have learned from JEA as noted by Salem.

...Ford said JTA's position as an industry leader in the field of autonomous transit helped convince Holon to pick Jacksonville for a $100 million manufacturing plant for autonomous shuttles. About 200 people will work at the plant when it starts production in 2027. Holon, which is based in Germany, also moved its U.S. headquarters to Jacksonville.

"I serve at the pleasure of the JTA board of directors, but I wouldn't be doing my job as your CEO to not state the economic impact of the Holon plant," Ford said. " ... They saw this project as a lighthouse project for the United States."

Deegan also points to Holon as a reason for continuing construction of the U2C.

"What you're seeing with this project is ripple effects across the city," Deputy Chief of Staff Joe Inderhees told the DOGE Committee...

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2025/11/04/new-jta-autonomous-shuttles-face-questions-by-duval-doge/87090347007/

So, the justification now is to spend over $400 million plus millions more in operating losses and interest costs to obtain 200 jobs in 2027 for what remains a speculative venture?  Really?  That outdoes even the lousy Four Seasons and stadium paybacks. 

I am a fan of Deegan, but not on this.  Looks like Ford has done a complete snow job on her.  Tacachale, no pressure, but you need to warn Deegan about the "train" [NOT] coming down the tracks here...  it's important if she plans to keep up her poll numbers!  Curry is just waiting to pounce on something like this come election time and Salem, Diamond and Miller are setting her up for it with these hearings.

[thelakelander]

Holon is just as much speculative as the U2C. They're only here because of the millions in local tax money coming their way. The numbers still don't make sense for local taxpayers.

[thelakelander]

Charles, to your point, this is a total deja vu of the Skyway's justification...

It's way worse!!! You can't justify spending this type of money on any public system that can only generate less than 300 riders a day.......a decade from now. This is serious negligence of local public funds. As raggedy as the Skyway is now, it still averages 1,100 a day.

As of 2023, their plans included licensing or selling their technology/experience to other municipalities and private companies who want to do something similar. So, it wasn't just about riders, but about developing something new and valuable they could profit from. Per Bernard Schmidt, who resigned later that year.

Sounds like Jax could benefit from having an agency actually focused on providing mass transit. Not a speculative tech start up primarily funded with local tax money.

[Jax_Developer]

Why does anyone think Holon/Benteler is capable of this deliverable anyway? They are an OEM provider - this isn't a typical use case. No I don't care that they have a shuttle able to drive 25mph in urban traffic in Europe. Just not the same environment as here. 

They have almost no skin the game anyway.. only upside. Theres no way they would be taking the risk without a guarantee of vehicles being sold at some crazy price... oh wait.

Mayor Donna Deegan's deputy chief of staff told the committee that Deegan supports construction of the autonomous vehicle system.

I voted for her but this item has made me a single issue voter for the next mayoral race. My vote will go towards whoever rips the cord on this program. Everything else is really peanuts compared to $400M of local money.

[Charles Hunter]

JAX Today reports on the Duval DOGE meeting

Diamond said in an interview Tuesday that he is "very likely" to introduce legislation that would redirect the $240 million gas tax money earmarked for the U2C to other projects like road resurfacing and reconstruction. But he says he wants to hear from council members outside the DOGE committee to gauge support of such a move.

"We're just at a loggerheads when it comes to whether or not we should be doing the U2C program. I adamantly think we need to pull the plug. It sounds like they want to keep going. I think that's throwing out good more for bad," Diamond said. "At the very least, I bet you everyone would agree we'd be better off paving streets and making people's commute to school or to work a little bit easier."

https://jaxtoday.org/2025/11/05/duval-doge-autonomous-vehicles/?omhide=true

Today's edition also has an Ennis Davis article comparing the U2C with Tuscon's Sun Link streetcar.
https://jaxtoday.org/2025/11/05/opinion-smaller-than-jax-but-i-have-rail-lessons-from-tucsons-sun-link-system/?omhide=true

The success of Sun Link wasn't about density; it was about connecting the right destinations with reliable, visible infrastructure that people trust. If Jacksonville wants to move forward, it must learn from cities like Tucson, not fear them. Innovation doesn't mean chasing gimmicks, it means investing smartly in what works.

Which prompts the question - How much of a streetcar system could Jacksonville get for $400 million? Since it is a proven technology, it might be more likely to get federal transit funds (especially if there is a more transit-friendly administration in a couple of years).

[jcjohnpaint]

Just rode the one in Cincinnati and loved it. Lots of people were riding it.

[jcjohnpaint]

Is the 76 riders a day the entire system, including the skyway? Where would these people be going since it is not running on game day?

[thelakelander]

^No. The Skyway gets over 1,100 a day right now. When it was reliable and maintained better, it was 5,000 a day.

Everyone said those numbers are a failure. But we now want to spend twice as much on something they admit won't attract or serve nearly as many people.

[jaxlongtimer]

Want an idea why JTA gets favorable treatment from elected officials? 

Click on this story, https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/finance-chairs-family-business-paid-35000-work-jacksonville-council-presidents-party/MNE6QAMI4BCA7K6PPYBID5VCNA/

...and scroll through the donor list for Council President Carrico's "installation" party.  $5,000 of taxpayer money donated by JTA.  Plus, another $500 from AV company, Beep.

Follow the money... and understand why it is so hard to kill U2C.

[acme54321]

How is it even legal for JTA to donate money to anything like that???

[Jax_Developer]

Can we stop focusing on a $5k check from the city & please look into the Chang Robotics/Industrials saga? The web of JTA, Jax Chamber, Jacksonville University, and Chang Robotics is truly disgusting. All interconnected... all sponsoring each others stuff.

https://imgur.com/W7aYZrN
https://www.jaxvc.com/
https://www.ju.edu/news/2025-10-30-davis-college-honors-chang-robotics-founder-as-executive-alumnus-of-the-year.php
https://www.jaxtechfest.com/

[Joey Mackey]

More and more news coverage on this topic: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2025/11/07/jta-autonomous-vehicle-plan-facing-questions-after-first-100-days-of-navi/87122897007/

If I could ask Ford one question it would be what problem is the U2C solving? No one needs to take a trip to the stadium during the work week, and all the other bars/restaurants are within walking distance of the office towers. Even if it gets expanded to San Marco, why would I ever take the risk of getting stuck in a van with a questionable person when I could just pay for an uber that might cost me an extra $10. I imagine most people in larger cities take public transportation because they have to, for many reasons, not because they want to. No one will ever need to use these things.

[Ken_FSU]

If I could ask Ford one question it would be what problem is the U2C solving?

This is one of two fundamental questions I've been asking since the day this thing was announced.

1. What existing problem does it solve? (there isn't one - the need for the U2C simply doesn't exist)
2. Is U2C duplicative of what the private sector will soon do better and cheaper? (yes, yes it is).

Can you imagine what the ridership numbers would have been in comparison, at 5% of the cost, had JTA moved forward with a no-frills Skyway expansion into Brooklyn? Easiest layup they'll ever have, mothballed for 20 years.

[thelakelander]

^The reality is that neither of these questions are the core priorities for the project.

It also has nothing to really do with the Skyway. The Skyway talk is just a convenient way to attempt to justify a "need" to invest in NAVI.

This is a tech experiement funded through local tax dollars. It should be evaluated from that perspective.

[jaxlongtimer]

This is a tech experiment funded through local tax dollars. It should be evaluated from that perspective.

Then I would add these questions which JTA board members should be asking:

1. Why and how do you think you can prove and implement this tech better with no plan, $400 million and 5 years or so vs. tech and auto companies that have spent billions and decades and are already at the point of perfecting it (e.g. Waymo) or are still struggling mightily to do so (e.g. Tesla)? 

2. Why are we doing this vs. just inviting others, such as Waymo, to walk in and deliver it for free (it's a business for them) or at very little cost?

3. How does moving a handful of people in small slow moving vehicles in traffic with drivers equal (autonomous?) MASS transit which should be our mission?