Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[vicupstate]

Florida/Georgia ain't staying here long-term either without infrastructure improvements.

Not when Mercedes Benz stadium and Atlanta are breathing down our necks.

I don't follow the politics around this game too much especially lately but would Florida really go for this?

[Tacachale]

Florida/Georgia ain't staying here long-term either without infrastructure improvements.

Not when Mercedes Benz stadium and Atlanta are breathing down our necks.

I don't follow the politics around this game too much especially lately but would Florida really go for this?

As it stands neither team is going for that. Our top capacity is thousands of seats bigger and we offer a payout that Atlanta has no reason to compete with. But down the road, if we don't continue to maintain the stadium or don't have the money to offer the payout, it certainly could happen.

[vicupstate]

Florida/Georgia ain't staying here long-term either without infrastructure improvements.

Not when Mercedes Benz stadium and Atlanta are breathing down our necks.

I don't follow the politics around this game too much especially lately but would Florida really go for this?

As it stands neither team is going for that. Our top capacity is thousands of seats bigger and we offer a payout that Atlanta has no reason to compete with. But down the road, if we don't continue to maintain the stadium or don't have the money to offer the payout, it certainly could happen.

To me Florida would be giving GA permanent home field advantage. 

[vicupstate]

One thing I haven't seen discussed here are other reprocussions of the Jaguars leaving.  For one, I don't think FL-GA would stick around without a modern stadium and the city isn't going to (and shouldn't) maintain the stadium to that level without the Jags. 

I agree. It is already a way above average stadium. It is a once a year game. It is ridiculous to think it has to be the best stadium in the country when it is ligth years ahead of either schools own stadium.   

[Ken_FSU]

^Question for you Bill! I know UNF is probably still a decade+ away from launching a football program because of the insane cost (half a Lot J!) that would need to be passed on to a student population that is still growing. Curious though why the draft plans center around building a 25,000 seat football stadium at UNF rather than leveraging our NFL stadium. Is TIAA Bank too big/expensive for an upstart program? Does the school just prefer a more intimate stadium directly on campus? Can see benefits of both approaches. Might be a ways out, but will be really fun when it happens.

[marcuscnelson]

Speaking from my own experience (UF), there's really a big advantage in being able to just walk to the stadium for a game. Student organizations often hold tailgates around campus, as well as fraternities at their houses. The entire campus is transformed for a day into this really exciting atmosphere. I don't know how UNF students would feel about having to drive or find some form of transit to get all the way from Southside to TIAA Bank. Not to mention being able to drag themselves and their friends home afterwards.

If they're only talking about 25k seats, that to me implies that they expect things to be small for some time. The Swamp holds over 90k some games, between students and alumni. At TIAA, I imagine UNF would only fill the lower bowl maybe, and I don't know how a half-full stadium feels in terms of atmosphere.

[thelakelander]

No vote until next year. Hazouri has made his move. I guess we'll see how the Jags and Mayors Office responds:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/12/06/city-council-president-tommy-hazouri-pushes-lot-j-vote-january/3829163001/

[marcuscnelson]

Good. Props to Hazouri for standing up for taxpayers. Surely we can wait a month to get some more details. Hopefully the Jags try to win... anything? before the season ends and start putting together some actual blueprints for what exactly they need so much of our money to build. If they'd just be honest with people over the next month, they could probably pull together enough support.

A man can dream, but I'd still like to see Council just approve the initial remediation and infrastructure cost (~$100m) and then put the actual construction + stadium reno up to a referendum.

[Tacachale]

^Question for you Bill! I know UNF is probably still a decade+ away from launching a football program because of the insane cost (half a Lot J!) that would need to be passed on to a student population that is still growing. Curious though why the draft plans center around building a 25,000 seat football stadium at UNF rather than leveraging our NFL stadium. Is TIAA Bank too big/expensive for an upstart program? Does the school just prefer a more intimate stadium directly on campus? Can see benefits of both approaches. Might be a ways out, but will be really fun when it happens.

I don't think there was ever consideration given to using the Bank. The cost of renting it is one thing but there's also controlling concessions and the risk of losing attendance if the stadium is across town. UCF had that issue when they were at the Citrus Bowl.

[Ken_FSU]

^Question for you Bill! I know UNF is probably still a decade+ away from launching a football program because of the insane cost (half a Lot J!) that would need to be passed on to a student population that is still growing. Curious though why the draft plans center around building a 25,000 seat football stadium at UNF rather than leveraging our NFL stadium. Is TIAA Bank too big/expensive for an upstart program? Does the school just prefer a more intimate stadium directly on campus? Can see benefits of both approaches. Might be a ways out, but will be really fun when it happens.

I don't think there was ever consideration given to using the Bank. The cost of renting it is one thing but there's also controlling concessions and the risk of losing attendance if the stadium is across town. UCF had that issue when they were at the Citrus Bowl.

Good info, thanks Bill.

I could really see the community rallying around a UNF football team.

Speaking from my own experience (UF), there's really a big advantage in being able to just walk to the stadium for a game. Student organizations often hold tailgates around campus, as well as fraternities at their houses. The entire campus is transformed for a day into this really exciting atmosphere. I don't know how UNF students would feel about having to drive or find some form of transit to get all the way from Southside to TIAA Bank. Not to mention being able to drag themselves and their friends home afterwards.

If they're only talking about 25k seats, that to me implies that they expect things to be small for some time. The Swamp holds over 90k some games, between students and alumni. At TIAA, I imagine UNF would only fill the lower bowl maybe, and I don't know how a half-full stadium feels in terms of atmosphere.

Florida State was the same way. Loved having the stadium on-campus. Other state schools like USF and UM share facilities with their respective NFL teams. Nicer facilities, but missing some of that intimacy.

No vote until next year. Hazouri has made his move. I guess we'll see how the Jags and Mayors Office responds:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/12/06/city-council-president-tommy-hazouri-pushes-lot-j-vote-january/3829163001/

The mayor's office and the Jags are still pushing for a vote next week.

Would require a super-majority to override Hazouri, which could conceivably happen if there's already a super-majority ready to vote yes.

Bad deal or good deal, I personally don't like how Hazouri is handling this at all.

He's acting unilaterally when this is a Council of the Whole issue, and - in my opinion - a big part of the reason the vote is potentially slipping into 2021 is because he railroaded the first Council workshop that spun out of control without anyone getting their questions answered, he skipped the Gaffney workshop entirely that 14 or 15 other Council members attended to pose their questions, and then he stalled out last week's Council meeting by not following the agenda and spending half an hour talking in circles at Paul Harden before throwing it to Carlucci to finish out the stall.

Megha and Paul Harden sent Hazouri a letter on Friday with the final non-negotiables and proposed a special meeting on the 11th for a vote. As far as I know, Hazouri never even bothered to respond.

Feels like he's intentionally blocking a vote when it should have been the Council's decision (not Hazouri's) on Thursday whether or not they wanted to move it to a final vote on Tuesday.

The deal is the deal, I really do think it's time to either vote it up or vote it down.

[marcuscnelson]

The deal is the deal, I really do think it's time to either vote it up or vote it down.

I disagree. Clearly the public outrage has led to at least some movement on the Jaguars' part. I don't see why we can't keep pushing to improve the deal in any way that's less blatantly tilted against taxpayers. More importantly, it's not clear what the rush is at this point. Is there any indication that they're shovel ready right now? What exactly was supposed to happen between this week and January that makes it so incredibly important to send this vote through immediately without further discussion? If the Jags are seriously prepared to walk just because we're not big fans of this ancillary development offer as-is, why don't they tell us that instead of dancing around it with "fatigue"?

[Ken_FSU]

The deal is the deal, I really do think it's time to either vote it up or vote it down.

I disagree. Clearly the public outrage has led to at least some movement on the Jaguars' part. I don't see why we can't keep pushing to improve the deal in any way that's less blatantly tilted against taxpayers. More importantly, it's not clear what the rush is at this point. Is there any indication that they're shovel ready right now? What exactly was supposed to happen between this week and January that makes it so incredibly important to send this vote through immediately without further discussion? If the Jags are seriously prepared to walk just because we're not big fans of this ancillary development offer as-is, why don't they tell us that instead of dancing around it with "fatigue"?

I'm all for pushing negotiations as far as they can possibly go.

And if the City Council decides as a group that they want to push a decision until 2025, that's their choice to make.

I'm just not a fan of Hazouri taking that choice out of City Council's hands and deciding unilaterally to block a vote.

Not his place to decide for the rest of the Council.

There was a motion to vote to discharge on Thursday, and he shut it down before it even began.

I totally get his point, and I think it comes from a good place, but we've got 18 other Council Members as well.

[Charles Hunter]

Well, if 13 Council Members agree with you and Curry that The World As We Know It Shall Endeth^[TM] if they don't pass The Deal^[TM] by the Ides of December, they have the power to get it out of committee.  If, as marcusnelson said, not getting this deal approved this week will be the impetus for the Jaguars to move, let them say so, that is important information to have.

[Ken_FSU]

Well, if 13 Council Members agree with you and Curry that The World As We Know It Shall Endeth^[TM] if they don't pass The Deal^[TM] by the Ides of December, they have the power to get it out of committee.  If, as marcusnelson said, not getting this deal approved this week will be the impetus for the Jaguars to move, let them say so, that is important information to have.

I don't think either one of these things is true.

The world doesn't end if we don't pass this deal next week.

Nor do the Jags leave if the deal isn't approved before holiday recess.

BUT, if the City and the Jags are at the finish line, and there are only seven items left that there is no agreement on and will not be agreement on, I'm all for getting the vote over with, whether it's a yes or a no.

Or at least giving City Council the option to vote.

After all the hard work from the DIA, City Council, the Auditor, the OGC, the Jags, and Cordish over the last six weeks, it's not Hazouri's place to unilaterally say, "You know what, let's put this all on ice for the next five weeks and then pick back up in 2021."

When I say "The Deal is the deal," the remaining changes aren't substantive and the final development agreement is expected by Monday.

Everyone should know exactly what they're voting on.

And again, if they don't, and they're not comfortable voting yet, they should have the right to decide as a Council body to not discharge the bill.

[jaxlongtimer]

Well, if 13 Council Members agree with you and Curry that The World As We Know It Shall Endeth^[TM] if they don't pass The Deal^[TM] by the Ides of December, they have the power to get it out of committee.  If, as marcusnelson said, not getting this deal approved this week will be the impetus for the Jaguars to move, let them say so, that is important information to have.

Reading the article, I think Hazouri can make this decision with a lot of confidence the Council isn't going to override him for an earlier vote.  Although, with the City Council, you never know who will blow with the wind and change their mind.

It appears to me that Hazouri is actually doing most of his fellow council members a big favor by delaying the vote as many are admitting they are getting quite a bit of push back on this deal from their constituents.  Unless Council members can show a long list of material last minute concessions by the Jags they are straddling the edge of a knife politically.

By the way, "Chamber" Bowman and Mayor's "you-can-always-count-on-me to support whatever you ask for" Gaffney seem to be the most vocal I have seen for pushing this through before the end of the year.  Discount their unfettered loyalty to the Mayor and I don't see much stomach by the Council for rushing this.  It's striking that some of the Mayor's other "reliables" are, at least publicly, still hemming and hawing.