Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[bl8jaxnative]

Monroe's a dolt.   There's a dozen successful freeway removal projects out there that everyone and their grandmother knows about.  Cities are looking at more.  And he's complaining because a few spans of sparsely used and fugly concrete are being removed. 

He's a natural born complainer.  A broken clock. 


Jacksonville not only needs to tear down those useless lanes, they need to tear down the Berkman II.  No doubt when the city finally gets around to that in 18 years, Monroe will be complaining about it to.  Dark.

[jaxlongtimer]

Monroe's a dolt.   There's a dozen successful freeway removal projects out there that everyone and their grandmother knows about.  Cities are looking at more.  And he's complaining because a few spans of sparsely used and fugly concrete are being removed. 

He's a natural born complainer.  A broken clock. 


Jacksonville not only needs to tear down those useless lanes, they need to tear down the Berkman II.  No doubt when the city finally gets around to that in 18 years, Monroe will be complaining about it to.  Dark.

I think you are missing the point.  Taxpayers keep spending tens of millions of dollars tearing down things for projects that never happen.  There is no ROI.  Meanwhile, we destroyed something that still had a continuing or potential residual value that could have lasted for many more years until a real project showed up.

And, there is a difference between publicly funded projects and private ones.  If the City tears down Berkman, they will put a lien on the property for the cost.  Of course, knowing Jacksonville, we will allow the sale of the land for a bargain price and never recover the lien amount.  What the City, instead of handing out easy permits for demolition of historic buildings, should be pursuing is the disposition of the Berkman, a much bigger eyesore than anything else.  Curry could have one last demo thrill to boot and go out with a real bang!

[heights unknown]

Nate Monroe, once again, calls it like it is:

Tearing down a bridge to somewhere

COMMENTARY | Jacksonville has a hardened addiction to chasing the Big Project: The billion-dollar something-or-other that will finally put this city by the river on the map, to prove to the world it belongs in the conversation, downtown's long-desired road to Damascus.

And so when Jaguars owner Shad Khan suggested years ago he might be interested in building something   — or a lot of things, it depends on which rendering one believes  — one day, maybe, on Metropolitan Park, what did you expect would happen? The city has rushed headlong to fulfill Khan's dreams (and his wallet) and has indicated time and again it will bow to one generous concession after the next: Give away remediated public land for free? Pay off the feds to weasel out of replacing downtown riverfront park space? Gift nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in public subsidies? All and more are on the table.

And yet the city, despite tremendous effort and expense, continues to find its day of salvation is always just out of reach.

At this point, who can even say anymore what, exactly, Khan plans on building between Lot J  —  the parking lot adjacent to TIAA Bank Field  —  and Metropolitan Park across the street? Every time a new question arises, or a new unflattering development surfaces, Khan simply rearranges the set pieces on his colorful renderings and pretends as if nothing is amiss....

.....It turns out what the city has actually done is bid development rights away it doesn't have to a developer who wouldn't commit, and now it's ready to bid it out again, and likely that same developer with less grandiose plans will win the rights the city doesn't have to a piece of property that can't be developed.

Sounds like a plan.

Read the whole column here:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2020/08/20/jacksonvilles-dance-jaguars-owner-proves-fruitless/5608279002/

Awesome Nate, awesome; truth surely be told! I don't know when or if this madness ever stops, but it has to. Jax is now the weakest and feeblest major city in the State of Florida; there's NOTHING really going on in the urban core/downtown Jax. Dead as a possum run over by a semi tractor trailer truck. Hope it all changes before we all push up daisies!

[bl8jaxnative]

Monroe's a dolt.   There's a dozen successful freeway removal projects out there that everyone and their grandmother knows about.  Cities are looking at more.  And he's complaining because a few spans of sparsely used and fugly concrete are being removed. 

I think you are missing the point.  Taxpayers keep spending tens of millions of dollars tearing down things for projects that never happen.

You + Monroe are not just missing the point, you're refusing to acknowledge it.

It's a freeway removal project.   Some proposed development is the catalyst , not the reason.  The reason is that it's not needed AND it's standard urban renewal stuff.

Removing that stretch of elevated freeway is what you do to build great places.

San Francisco, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Portland, et al. have all done this sort of thing.


Nothing to do with the proejct.  Those project can occur w/ the lanes in place.  That's just a cover story; a catalyst for getting the funds.

If you want a great place in the city, ya gotta remove the elvated sprawling subrban freeway.

[thelakelander]

I don't have a problem with removing the freeway. The part I hate is they are making things worse. If you're going to remove a freeway....remove it all. Not just the middle 1/4 mile.

[Steve]

The other thing is let's just say Curry was pulling the entire thing down. Is that really the most important thing downtown right now? I'd argue no.

We are YEARS away from any real construction at that site. Save the money and do something else with it, grow the economic base downtown THEN come back to it.

[thelakelander]

If there was a plan (sorry the CRA plan isn't detailed enough to lead to this outcome) that identified primary retail thoroughfares and Bay was identified as one, then a ramp demo could still make sense. Basically by taking down the entire thing west of Talleyrand, would send more auto traffic down Bay all the way through downtown as opposed to Adams, Forsyth and Duval. The higher AADT would create more through traffic visibility for properties on Bay, helping lead to a better market condition for retail clustering along the corridor. The reduction of AADT on the parallel streets would make them more suitable for lane diets and repurposing of those corridors to add dedicated cycle tracks, wider sidewalks for outdoor dining, more on-street parking, etc.

[Steve]

Any way to stop the stupid ramp up to the flyovers that would connect Adams/Duval?

[bl8jaxnative]

The other thing is let's just say Curry was pulling the entire thing down. Is that really the most important thing downtown right now? I'd argue no.

We are YEARS away from any real construction at that site. Save the money and do something else with it, grow the economic base downtown THEN come back to it.

The federal and state money can't just be saved.  It's a multiyear process just to get it.  You've gotta spend it while it's there.

[Steve]

The other thing is let's just say Curry was pulling the entire thing down. Is that really the most important thing downtown right now? I'd argue no.

We are YEARS away from any real construction at that site. Save the money and do something else with it, grow the economic base downtown THEN come back to it.

The federal and state money can't just be saved.  It's a multiyear process just to get it.  You've gotta spend it while it's there.

That doesn't make the project worth it. It was basically $12.5M from the Feds, State, and COJ. The state grant didn't take a ton of legwork. The federal one did, but again, that doesn't make it worth it. Plus, how much time and effort was spent applying for those grants? Your argument would make sense if the money just fell into our laps like the Stork dropping off a Baby. That's not what happened; COJ lobbied those organizations for a long time for this. Lobby for something else.

[Charles Hunter]

The other thing is let's just say Curry was pulling the entire thing down. Is that really the most important thing downtown right now? I'd argue no.

We are YEARS away from any real construction at that site. Save the money and do something else with it, grow the economic base downtown THEN come back to it.

The federal and state money can't just be saved.  It's a multiyear process just to get it.  You've gotta spend it while it's there.

That doesn't make the project worth it. It was basically $12.5M from the Feds, State, and COJ. The state grant didn't take a ton of legwork. The federal one did, but again, that doesn't make it worth it. Plus, how much time and effort was spent applying for those grants? Your argument would make sense if the money just fell into our laps like the Stork dropping off a Baby. That's not what happened; COJ lobbied those organizations for a long time for this. Lobby for something else.

And, those grants could be applied for when "needed".

[jaxlongtimer]

The really sad part is all those grant and City dollars should have been spent in parts of the City and on projects that are in much greater need presently and for many decades prior.  Khan, with Curry's backing, basically pushed his way to the front of a very long line that usually takes years to move to the front of, if ever.

The alleged urgency evaporated when Khan pulled back so this wasn't really all that urgent in the end, if it ever was.  Back to the points made by Nate Monroe.

[Steve]

A few years back a few of us from The Jaxson's predecessor site met with the staff of Rep Corrine Brown. During that meeting, the staff brought up that in Washington, Jacksonville had a reputation for either squandering grant money, or being unable to show a ROI on the money.

Now, Corrine Brown hasn't been in DC for a few year and this was obviously a while ago, but today are we any better?

The point is, federal money is real money. Maybe I'm in the minority but I feel like as a city we have an obligation to show a good ROI when asking for state and federal funds. It's kind of like a kid that rarely asks for anything. When they do, you're more apt to listen versus the kid that has asked for 163926495 things for Christmas by the time it's March 15th.

Or maybe I'm just old fashioned about these sort of things and I take it too seriously when others give me money.

[thelakelander]

It's squandered tax money. Whether its local, state or federal, its public funds that could have been put to better use.

[ProjectMaximus]

The reason is that it's not needed AND it's standard urban renewal stuff.

Removing that stretch of elevated freeway is what you do to build great places.

San Francisco, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Portland, et al. have all done this sort of thing.

If you want a great place in the city, ya gotta remove the elvated sprawling subrban freeway.

Oh what irony