Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[Bativac]

Move Metro Park wherever would be suitable, I'm assuming either part of the Shipyards or somewhere else. It'd be nice to have a real signature urban park but I don't think we'd be willing to spend on it. If Khan wants to build his Four Seasons, he can get the land but he should pay to build it.

Can someone tell me why there is such a big push to move Metro Park? Is it just so developers can take a crack at it? I grew up going there and it seems like a real shame to lose it as a park, especially if all they plan to build on it is a hotel (we all know the pie in the sky development dreams for Downtown Jax do not and will not ever happen). Or am I missing something?

[Snaketoz]

Marcus, I don't want to tear your post to shreds.  The only part I dislike is the "what's done, is done" part.  That is the problem we have in Jacksonville.  We keep electing and re-electing political puppet hacks who keep making the same pie in the sky mistakes, with impunity.  Anybody with a pulse who listened to Lenny Curry when he first ran for mayor speak, should have realized the guy was an empty suit.  Sure, he was a bigshot in the Florida Republican party, but what were his real qualifications to lead a large city?  To think he was re-elected depresses the Hell out of me.  He is just a figure head for the fleecing of our citizens.  He has set Jacksonville back at least 20 years.  Knowing our voters, when his term is up, another boy-wonder will be elected to replace him.  All he'll have to do is be approved by Shad Con, promise not to raise taxes, and have a "R" beside his name.  I'm giving up!

[Ken_FSU]

Maybe Boyer is trying to show that Jax is finally growing a back bone.  Curry has been around for 5.5 years and has failed to deliver on almost every promise he's made.  As people are starting to look at life after curry we need to stop pandering to big money and be smarter with who we partner with on city owned land downtown.  The pie in the sky billion dollar projects that will never materialize need to take a backseat to smart development.  If Curry could, he'd let Khan hold onto the project indefinitely regardless of signs of progress.  I like that we took it away.

Agreed with all, but I'd counter by saying that the Shipyards isn't, and shouldn't be, a short-term priority for Jacksonville or the DIA right now. It's been vacant for 20+ years, the last two RFPs have shown literally no credible interest in the property outside of Shad Khan, and we've got much bigger fish to fry on the riverfront at the Landing, at the Old Courthouse site, with the Emerald Trail and Morris/Times-Union property, etc.

There's no money in anyone's three or five year plans at the city to spend $35 million remediating the Shipyards, so we couldn't even parcel it out for development right now. And there's no universe where a developer is going to come along and front the cost for remediation.

If Shad Khan genuinely has no interest in the property anymore and wants to open it up for someone else to develop, then there's no story here. But if it's a power play by the DIA/Boyer, I think it's a bad move. They haven't been shy to hand out extensions to a dozen other developers, it feels petty to yank the Shipyards from the Jags when it's not development ready and history at both the Shipyards and the Ford on Bay has shown that there probably won't be other suitors, and certainly not other suitors with the pockets of Khan.

Also, in regards to Khan's long-held desire to build a Four Seasons/upscale hotel at Met Park, this quote really made me want to bang my head against the wall. Between the Landing, Courthouse site, Shipyards, and Met Park, we've got a hundred acres of empty riverfront land on the Northbank alone. Beggars can't be chosers. I'd rather see any development at the Shipyards/Met Park than another 20 years of public workshops, market studies, failed RFPs, etc.

Boyer said she expects Khan to submit a new proposal that still includes a luxury hotel [at Metropolitan Park], but she said the rest of the plan could be significantly different than the original.

Carlucci said Tuesday he has reservations about shuttering Metropolitan Park, which he has described as a sacred public space despite its sparing use in recent years.

He said any replacement would need to be ambitious and "spectacular." He said the new status of the Shipyards property should serve as a "reset" to allow the public weigh in on the future of the property.

"We can't settle for hotels and office space, but we need to have a park that's got a lot of attractions and amenities that will attract people," Carlucci said. "Let's not settle for 'that--will-do.' I want to reach for the stars. I want people to be excited about their city."

[Ken_FSU]

By my count it's $56M:

$25M of COJ money for Hart Ramps
$9 for the Bay Street Gov't Complex
$22 for the Landing demo (including "East Lot" court decision)

What an ROI.

Don't forget the $63 million Innovation Corridor.

In five years time, there will be an experimental clown car station at the ruins of the Jacksonville Landing, ready to take you - in mixed traffic - past the ruins of an Annex/Old Courthouse site stuck in ligitation hell, through the contaminated brownfields of the Shipyards, past the ruins of the Hart Bridge ramps, and to a stadium that may or may not still play host to a professional football team.

You still won't be able to find a cup of coffee past 6 PM downtown, but if a gunshot were to be fired at the clown car, the vehicle will alert Jacksonville International Airport, which will send a fiber-optic beacon to the sunken USS Adams, which will fire a nuclear warhead at the Berkman II.

[jaxjaguar]

Of all of the demos that have happened in the last 15 years, has there been any construction to replace any structures on their existing lots?
By my count these are all "no's" and I'm sure I'm missing several more. Also, I'm aware that some of these have replacements in other locations, but the fact is their original lots are still empty.

• Greyhound Station
• Metropark Amphitheater
• Old Courthouse
• Landing
• Hart Ramps
• 638 W Forsyth
• Main Street Pocket Park

[Lostwave]

I know the Jags are still interested and working hard to develop the shipyards.  I saw a recent presentation showing everything in the current plan and it was transformative.  In another thread someone posted the Park plan of it which is correct.  So met part would be moved to surround Hogans Creek as well as a riverwalk spanning the entire length.  Current met park through APRandolph and the area in front of Maxwell House would be Five star hotel, Offices, a medical center and many Apt Residences.  It does look less ambitious from previous plans, but so much is going to lot J.  I have no doubt Shad wants to develop this and will if he can make the right deal with the city.  Remediation is still a major factor.  Sorry, not allowed to post pictures.

[Charles Hunter]

Pardon my cynicism, but this

I have no doubt Shad wants to develop this and will if he can make the right deal with the city.

means, "Jacksonville taxpayers take all the risk, and if there is profit, it all goes to Shad Khan."

[Captain Zissou]

Of all of the demos that have happened in the last 15 years, has there been any construction to replace any structures on their existing lots?
By my count these are all "no's" and I'm sure I'm missing several more. Also, I'm aware that some of these have replacements in other locations, but the fact is their original lots are still empty.

• Greyhound Station
• Metropark Amphitheater
• Old Courthouse
• Landing
• Hart Ramps
• 638 W Forsyth
• Main Street Pocket Park

You accidentally put a 1 in there.  I think you meant to say demolition in the last 5 years.

[Steve]

Does Kahn REALLY want to develop all of the Shipyards,,,,even in a stronger market? Or does he really want the area around the stadium - Lot J and current Met Park?

I actually have no issue with the concept of swapping of Met Park with the Shipyards land around Hogan's Creek. Now in reality, a park is more than just sod so I don't see a lot of money lying around the develop it.

Regardless of all of this, I consider the area of downtown bound by Liberty/River/State/I-95 to be MUCH more important.

[avonjax]

I want Lot J. I've always been for it. I would even like the ambitious plans for the Shipyards. I don't think Khan is trying to rip off the city. He is a business man and making money is what they do, so that's ok. My problem is the worst mayor in my lifetime, Curry. Austin wasn't great but Curry is horrible. He is costing us millions of dollars. It would be ok with me if we were getting something in return. There will be traffic jams near the stadium now with no development in sight. Wasn't that the justification for tearing down the ramps? I'm certainly ok with the ramps coming down in exchange for something being developed. But as usual Curry never has a "bird in the hand" before he brings out the wrecking ball. He is going to leave office with a bombed out downtown with NOTHING to attract people from the suburbs to come downtown for. I promise you the people of Jax WILL NOT drive downtown for a park. Maybe on New Year's Eve or 4th of July. There is no other reason to go down for. Jacksonville is controlled by idiots with no vision. We have to be one of the worse cities of our size in America. When Curry said you won't recognize downtown when I leave office, boy he sure wasn't kidding. It will take years to recover from the debacle of Jacksonville. Be glad we have the beach and miles and miles of waterfront all over the county.

[sandyshoes]

When the Hart Bridge ramps were still there, everybody knew that the right lane was the one that would take you directly to the stadium.  The rest of the traffic could continue on.  Now that those ramps are gone, going down there and fighting the stadium or event traffic on game day/concert day/the fair is going to be one huge cluster, if you are specifically trying to get somewhere else.  (Unless you go out of your way and take the Matthews). These ramps were removed without asking for taxpayer input (vote) - do the taxpayers have any recourse for them having been removed under these conditions - Khan let the agreement fall through.  To me this was his carefully calculated move.  And somebody was gullible enough to proceed with demolition without the other end of the bargain underway. And here we are. 

[Steve]

I mean, there's a difference between whether something is good or bad versus whether something is good or bad right now. I strongly believe taking the ramps down is the right thing to do. I strongly disagreed that it should happen in hopes of a development, much like we tore down the old City Hall or Landing in hopes of a development.

[Ken_FSU]

I want Lot J. I've always been for it. I would even like the ambitious plans for the Shipyards. I don't think Khan is trying to rip off the city. He is a business man and making money is what they do, so that's ok. My problem is the worst mayor in my lifetime, Curry. Austin wasn't great but Curry is horrible. He is costing us millions of dollars. It would be ok with me if we were getting something in return. There will be traffic jams near the stadium now with no development in sight. Wasn't that the justification for tearing down the ramps? I'm certainly ok with the ramps coming down in exchange for something being developed. But as usual Curry never has a "bird in the hand" before he brings out the wrecking ball. He is going to leave office with a bombed out downtown with NOTHING to attract people from the suburbs to come downtown for. I promise you the people of Jax WILL NOT drive downtown for a park. Maybe on New Year's Eve or 4th of July. There is no other reason to go down for. Jacksonville is controlled by idiots with no vision. We have to be one of the worse cities of our size in America. When Curry said you won't recognize downtown when I leave office, boy he sure wasn't kidding. It will take years to recover from the debacle of Jacksonville. Be glad we have the beach and miles and miles of waterfront all over the county.

I'm with you. I like Lot J, and still think it would be a great asset to the city. It fills a need, and potentially solidifies the Jags as a Jacksonville franchise for decades to come. But it's just a total failure on all parties involved - Curry, Khan, and the DIA - that we don't have a deal done that the public can weigh in on, tied to stadium enhancements, a long-term lease extension, and guaranteed floor on the number of home games the Jags play in Jacksonville each year.

We talk about the cost of the Hart Bridge removal to make way for this project, but to Steve's point, it's still a positive development for the riverfront. The larger cost might be booting Rockville (and it's $10-$15 million annual impact on our hotels, restaurants, and businesses) to Daytona Beach before a shovel was even in the ground. We're also losing a second Jags home game to London in perpetuity (when travel resumes) because of construction impacts from a project for which a development agreement isn't even signed.

If we're going to do it, let's do it. Break ground as soon as possible, lock the Jags in long-term, and start reaping the benefits of the additional development by the stadium.

Also, talk seems to be that the DIA/Lori Boyer weren't trying to strong-arm Khan/Iguana. Instead, it sounds like nobody at the DIA even had a clue that the development agreement had expired until Matt Carlucci discovered it on his own when researching the recent Met Park bill. If true, it seems like a pretty major dropped ball by the DIA right as the Jags were starting to pick talks back up about moving forward with some form of development. I don't know what it will cost to re-issue the RFP, but it's gotta take time, money, and focus away from RFPing the Landing and resolving issues at Ford on Bay.

At the end of the day, it seems like it's going to be a non-story from the Jags point of view. Per their official statement, they're no longer actively pursuing development of the "western portion" of the Shipyards and plan to bid on Met Park & the eastern portion of the Shipyards.

Which is what we've kind of known all along. None of their pie-in-the-sky renders from the last several years have shown any development on the western Shipyards.

Either they're going to build the thing, or they're not, regardless of the new issue with the development agreement.



I don't have the blanket dislike for Curry that many people here do (he's done some good things to go with the bad), but it is pretty crazy how quiet he's gotten here in the last few months with things like the mask mandate (no-showing the press conference), Lot J (deferring all questions to the DIA), the RNC debacle, etc. First one to release a video when things are going good, shrinks away when they're not.

[vicupstate]

^^ What would be a good thing Curry has done?

[Steve]

I think the DIA wasn't paying attention because I think this, the Landing, and to a degree the Bay Street Gov't complex are dealt with by the Mayor's office and Boyer is purposely staying away from the hot potatoes. This is what I expected from her when she got the position and the positives of her being in the position is she knows which potatoes are hot.

Now should she have to deal with this? Of course not, but I can't blame her for that one.