What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?

[Tacachale]

^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.

My old man told me recently that both he and Ed Austin made several offers to build the garage for the Landing per the agreement, and Rouse turned them down. As it wasn't immediately adjacent (it would have been up the street a bit, a la the Parador garage) Rouse didn't feel it would have enough of an impact to be worth the investment. And so the city focused on other things around the Landing like programming and the Northbank Riverwalk.

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

[Wacca Pilatka]

^ Does that mean Rouse would have only settled for a garage on the spot where the surface lot is presently?

[Tacachale]

^ Does that mean Rouse would have only settled for a garage on the spot where the surface lot is presently?

I don't know.

[thelakelander]

Rouse's position on not wanting a garage 2 to 3 dark blocks away makes sense. I can't think of one festival marketplace they built in a smaller city like Jax that did not have adjacent dedicated parking. IMO, it's surprising that the Landing was built without the parking component already worked into the original plan.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.

My old man told me recently that both he and Ed Austin made several offers to build the garage for the Landing per the agreement, and Rouse turned them down. As it wasn't immediately adjacent (it would have been up the street a bit, a la the Parador garage) Rouse didn't feel it would have enough of an impact to be worth the investment. And so the city focused on other things around the Landing like programming and the Northbank Riverwalk.

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

So when the Adam's Mark was building their garage, couldn't there have been an agreement to kick in some additional $$$ to add a few floors of parking?

I mean, I don't know what the magic number would be for parking, but after your comment, it makes me wonder if it was even discussed.

[Steve]

^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.

My old man told me recently that both he and Ed Austin made several offers to build the garage for the Landing per the agreement, and Rouse turned them down. As it wasn't immediately adjacent (it would have been up the street a bit, a la the Parador garage) Rouse didn't feel it would have enough of an impact to be worth the investment. And so the city focused on other things around the Landing like programming and the Northbank Riverwalk.

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

So when the Adam's Mark was building their garage, couldn't there have been an agreement to kick in some additional $$$ to add a few floors of parking?

I mean, I don't know what the magic number would be for parking, but after your comment, it makes me wonder if it was even discussed.

Adam's Mark didn't build their garage. That's the former Daniel building.

[Adam White]

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

I think that, combined with the fact that it was essentially an isolated development with nothing around it, meant people wouldn't drive in from the suburbs to shop there when the novelty wore off.

[sandyshoes]

Kerry, (re: Reply #27)...to try to come up with an answer for your 'what the hell happened' to The Landing by the time you arrived here in 2003 and found nothing resembling the memories shared in this thread, my own theory is that the arrival of the NFL could have started the ball rolling.  We were awarded the NFL franchise for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993, and I think for one, the crazy euphoria of having a real NFL team in our little Podunk hometown overrode everything else.  Plus the fact that we immediately started receiving warnings from other NFL towns that along with the NFL would come more crime, drugs, violence...and now look what we've got today.  It might have started way back then and this might have had a little to do with the Landing 'not keeping up' as another observer put it.  With the number of stores that have come and gone, though, I'm not sure I would call that not having kept up if they were trying to bring better and better merch in.  Just my theory.  But yeah, Kerry, it was an awesome place.  And I still don't know anyplace today where we're going to be able to get those million-dollar views of the river with the ambience, lights, events. 

[vicupstate]

You guys are overthinking it. The Landing never turned a profit. The business model just doesn't work, except where there is a large presence of tourists and office workers.  Festival Marketplaces work in Miami and Boston and Baltimore. JAX and all the second tier cities that got a Rouse F.M. never made it.   

[thelakelander]

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

I think that, combined with the fact that it was essentially an isolated development with nothing around it, meant people wouldn't drive in from the suburbs to shop there when the novelty wore off.

It's more than this. Rouse was sold a bill of goods. Based off the archived material in the JPL special collections department,  they came because they got a ton of incentives and was sold that DT Jax would be the next Baltimore Inner Harbor. Without these things, it never would have been built because the market at the time wasn't large enough to support the concept. The other stuff never materialized and many of the initital retailers were already out by 1995.

[thelakelander]

You guys are overthinking it. The Landing never turned a profit. The business model just doesn't work, except where there is a large presence of tourists and office workers.  Festival Marketplaces work in Miami and Boston and Baltimore. JAX and all the second tier cities that got a Rouse F.M. never made it.   

When you think about it, the Landing fared well despite 30 years of continuous obstacles.  It would be around right now if the remaining profitable businesses weren't kicked out by COJ. You can't say that about similar centers in Flint, Toledo, Norfolk, Richmond, Battle Creek, etc. They failed quick and were repurposed years ago

[vicupstate]

It's certainly true that the Landing fared better than most, but it also was propped up not only with the incentives but also by never having to pay rent or property taxes on the land.   

[thelakelander]

Of course. Many of the other failed festival marketplaces had similar deals but they didn't matter because their retail deaths were swift. In Flint, the Water Street Pavilion opened in 1985 and closed for good in 1990. Portside opened in DT Toledo in 1984 and closed in 1990. If it had taken the path of Rouse's other festival marketplaces in smaller cities, the Landing should have shut down by 1993 or so, a full decade before Sleiman purchased it.

[Kerry]

Kerry, (re: Reply #27)...to try to come up with an answer for your 'what the hell happened' to The Landing by the time you arrived here in 2003 and found nothing resembling the memories shared in this thread, my own theory is that the arrival of the NFL could have started the ball rolling.  We were awarded the NFL franchise for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993, and I think for one, the crazy euphoria of having a real NFL team in our little Podunk hometown overrode everything else.  Plus the fact that we immediately started receiving warnings from other NFL towns that along with the NFL would come more crime, drugs, violence...and now look what we've got today.  It might have started way back then and this might have had a little to do with the Landing 'not keeping up' as another observer put it.  With the number of stores that have come and gone, though, I'm not sure I would call that not having kept up if they were trying to bring better and better merch in.  Just my theory.  But yeah, Kerry, it was an awesome place.  And I still don't know anyplace today where we're going to be able to get those million-dollar views of the river with the ambience, lights, events.

I tend to agree with you.

[jaxlongtimer]

I would suggest much of what plagued the Landing mirrors that which has plagued Downtown and, to some extent, still does.  And, its not one thing but the combination of many.

(1) No master plan/vision to integrate all that Downtown has or could offer into an unified experience.

(2) Lack of clustering and/or synergy with surrounding retail, attractions and events (e.g. eat/shop at the Landing and go to a concert, game, or museum downtown with a low cost or free shuttle service), etc.  Aggravated by the "walled off" effect of the building.

(3) Lack of quality mass transit connectivity and/or convenient parking (Question: was valet parking ever offered at the Landing?).  Running a free shuttle up and down Laura Street from the Landing would have been helpful.  I recall working downtown when the Landing opened and on a nice day, it was a good walk.  If not, good luck getting many office workers to make the trek.  Such a shuttle would have also opened up many more parking options.  Add failure to optimize the water taxi service to bring customers from other urban core areas to it (e.g. eat/shop at Landing and get a discounted/free water taxi ride with a validated voucher).

(4) Decline of surrounding employment base and other retail for much of its life.

(5) Lack of surrounding residential for most of its life.

(6) Opened with too high of a retail to eating/entertainment ratio. By the time it shifted it was too little too late.

(7) Failure of Downtown to consistently and significantly generate tourism traffic (Not reliably marketing Downtown to tourists:  e.g. witness no Downtown "attraction signs" on I-95 or I-10).  Question: Did they ever offer incentives to area hotel guests to visit with coupons or other incentives?

(8.) To the comment about the NFL, I believe many suburbanites have a subliminal "quota" for visits to Downtown and the home Jags games pretty much take that up.

(9) With the opening of Town Center, the concept of the Landing was effectively replaced with a more accessible and much upgraded variation on it's festival them.  [Will be interesting to see the competition between Lot J and Town Center.  Jax seems to still be a one-horse town for now so I wonder if there is room for both - plus Durbin Park in Northern St. Johns.  As to the Downtown core competing, we better address much of what's on this list or watch out!]

(10) Not placing blame here, but the failure of the City and the Landing management to partner together for the good of Downtown sure didn't help the Landing's public image.  It came across as a dying mall on life support which became a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Not very attractive to visitors.

(11) The final nail in the coffin was the more recent reputation many declining malls have acquired and which can be hard to shake once afflicted, that crime and patron safety is a major concern.  The Madden game shooting reinforced the perception that this was not a family venue anymore.