Convention Center Wars

[Kerry]

If you ask me, the only reason these buildings are coming down is because someone (Curry or Khan, most likely) think they are ugly.

Sadly, they are mentally stuck in 1970 thinking the best way to redevelop land is to clear it first.

[billy]

Would the City listen to an offer from a viable buyer at this point?

[Steve]

Would the City listen to an offer from a viable buyer at this point?

Likely yes, but someone with legit $$$ would need to act quickly.

[Charles Hunter]

Would the City listen to an offer from a viable buyer at this point?

Hasn't the demo contract been awarded?  Would have to figure a way around that, perhaps with this hypothetical deep pockets paying the contractor a bonus over the contract price?

[billy]

Didn't the public spaces have terrazzo flooring?
The interior demo and prep have probably trashed that them.

[minder]

I definitely think a riverfront convention center in a district anchored by an NFL stadium makes it much more attractive than the current offering and to more than just small local gatherings. In addition, theres a lot of secondary attractions in that area. The arena, the baseball grounds, the fairgrounds, Daily's Place now.

Organic growth on its own is not enough and if the city wants to attract major events like Superbowls, College Football matches, potentially major conventions, and other events it needs to cater to visitors. There needs to be more hotel rooms and places to eat and drink, and additionally, its very important to me that the city keeps its only major sports team as I feel the Jaguars put the city on the map worldwide. I have no problem with public money contributing to this. How many areas of the size of Jacksonville have someone as wealthy as Khan willing to invest in it? I don't get the suspicion and paranoia over his intentions from some or the notion that if we get rid of a sports team suddenly there will be a big pot of money for the city to end poverty, crime and pot holes forever

[thelakelander]

Would the City listen to an offer from a viable buyer at this point?

Hasn't the demo contract been awarded?  Would have to figure a way around that, perhaps with this hypothetical deep pockets paying the contractor a bonus over the contract price?

Yes the demo contract was awarded months ago. It's too late for them.

[thelakelander]

I definitely think a riverfront convention center in a district anchored by an NFL stadium makes it much more attractive than the current offering and to more than just small local gatherings. In addition, theres a lot of secondary attractions in that area. The arena, the baseball grounds, the fairgrounds, Daily's Place now.

Much of this "district" is a pipe dream that only exists in pretty renderings. The type of uses discussed aren't going to make a convention center stand out here moreso than any where else to the outside world. This is something we need to seriously consider before lighting public money on fire. Our convention center issue doesn't need to be a multi-billion dollar fleecing of public funds. We can do a lot more with that type of money being invested elsewhere.

Organic growth on its own is not enough and if the city wants to attract major events like Superbowls, College Football matches, potentially major conventions, and other events it needs to cater to visitors. There needs to be more hotel rooms and places to eat and drink, and additionally, its very important to me that the city keeps its only major sports team as I feel the Jaguars put the city on the map worldwide.

These things are happening right now. Hyatt Place, Hotel Indigo, Courtyard by Marriott, Residence Inn by Marriott, Ambassador Hotel, etc. are all real projects taking place right now that will add hotel rooms and places to eat and drink.....all over a mile east of the stadium. If we really want to take advantage of that organic growth, we'd make major public investments within walking distance of them to kick the synergy into overdrive. Right now, it appears we're creating a situation where downtown subdistricts are competing for the same things as opposed to complementing each other, which will ultimately hurt the entire area.

I have no problem with public money contributing to this. How many areas of the size of Jacksonville have someone as wealthy as Khan willing to invest in it? I don't get the suspicion and paranoia over his intentions from some or the notion that if we get rid of a sports team suddenly there will be a big pot of money for the city to end poverty, crime and pot holes forever.

I don't have a problem investing public money on projects that make sense for the taxpayer. I'm actually glad Khan is here. However, that doesn't mean I'd be willing to hand over money to him just because he is who he is. If he's asking for public dollars, his feet need to be held to fire just like any other developer would.

[thelakelander]

Sorry, I missed this line....

I definitely think a riverfront convention center in a district anchored by an NFL stadium makes it much more attractive than the current offering and to more than just small local gatherings. In addition, theres a lot of secondary attractions in that area. The arena, the baseball grounds, the fairgrounds, Daily's Place now.

Organic growth on its own is not enough and if the city wants to attract major events like Superbowls, College Football matches, potentially major conventions, and other events it needs to cater to visitors. There needs to be more hotel rooms and places to eat and drink, and additionally, its very important to me that the city keeps its only major sports team as I feel the Jaguars put the city on the map worldwide. I have no problem with public money contributing to this. How many areas of the size of Jacksonville have someone as wealthy as Khan willing to invest in it? I don't get the suspicion and paranoia over his intentions from some or the notion that if we get rid of a sports team suddenly there will be a big pot of money for the city to end poverty, crime and pot holes forever.

If fear of the Jags leaving town becomes the primary driver of how we invest in downtown, the area is screwed. Even a prostitute has boundaries. Is there a point where we'd say no?

[minder]

They may be a pipedream at the moment because of mere renderings, but I'm in the midwest and can visibly see the benefit that these Cordish major venue anchored projects have had in downtown KC/STL, and infact have moved into the latter phases. These were places that since suburban flight have severely suffered but are now alive with activity on a regular basis. The Cowboys and the Rangers also have a joint project between their stadiums in Arlington. If its good enough for them its good enough for Jacksonville in my eyes. I don't see what development would take place in that part of Downtown without the Jags. The shipyards have laid empty for years with prime riverfront space, we've got half built abandoned condos as well. Khan is the first man with the pockets and the intent to make stuff seriously happen in that area of town and has my full support, because as a small market NFL team, the organisation can't just rely on 10 games a year to make money.

[thelakelander]

They may be a pipedream at the moment because of mere renderings, but I'm in the midwest and can visibly see the benefit that these Cordish major venue anchored projects have had in downtown KC/STL, and infact have moved into the latter phases. These were places that since suburban flight have severely suffered but are now alive with activity on a regular basis.

I'm familiar with KC/STL. I don't mind Cordish coming to town but to be honest, Cordish isn't the driver of their downtown revitalization efforts. Both of those places have dense urban cores and do a great job of promoting their local culture. The Cordish developments also aren't a mile away from everything. They're in the middle of scenes that were already on the comeback.

In St. Louis, MetroLink LRT (1993), Citygarden (2009), Washington Avenue, etc. are all great spaces and investments that came on the scene before Ballpark Village opened in 2014. St. Louis also built their convention center (1977) literally in the heart of the city. Busch Stadium (2006) and Ballpark Village (2014) were also built within two blocks of the Old Courthouse. If we followed the St. Louis model, we'd have moved TIAA Bank Field closer to the core and all the additional development would simply bring more people into an area that was already organically making a comeback. The same thing applies to Kansas City. The Kansas City Convention Center (1976) and the Power & Light District (2007) are both in the heart of the city as opposed to Arrowhead Stadium. Now there's a street car the further ties these urban destinations together with other districts surrounding that city's downtown. If we followed the Kansas City example, we'd be building these things west of Hogans Creek.

The Cowboys and the Rangers also have a joint project between their stadiums in Arlington. If its good enough for them its good enough for Jacksonville in my eyes. I don't see what development would take place in that part of Downtown without the Jags.

Context is everything when it comes to understanding what makes infill development work and don't work. With that said, I'm definitely not against the Jags developing infill around TIAA Bank Field. It really boils down to simply making sure we aren't subsidizing their profits at the expense of everyone else. In other words, we need to make sure what the public subsidizes complements the investments already being made.

The shipyards have laid empty for years with prime riverfront space, we've got half built abandoned condos as well.

The Shipyards have laid empty because of the incompetence of the City of Jacksonville. Nothing more and nothing less. Berkman 2 is a special situation due to the collapse, years of lawsuits and a recession. However, it isn't unique. There's buildings like that in places like Miami and Houston as well.  Here's shots I took in both of their downtowns over the last month:

A dead project one block west of Miami's Brightline Station



Vacant shell in Downtown Houston


The two cities mentioned above are the two most cosmopolitan cities in the South. Both are also rapidly outgrowing Jax. Despite that growth, there are still projects that have failed in their downtowns for various reasons. I mention this because sometimes we get too fixated on sites we think are problems to vibrancy that really aren't. The Shipyards, Berkman and the JEA sites aren't the reason downtown struggles with obtaining pedestrian scale vibrancy. Because of their location and distance by foot from the core of the city, building them out won't resolve that particular issue either.

Khan is the first man with the pockets and the intent to make stuff seriously happen in that area of town and has my full support, because as a small market NFL team, the organisation can't just rely on 10 games a year to make money.

They aren't making money off a convention center unless we're building it for them. It's well proven that convention Centers tend to be money losers. The benefit they bring is when clustered with existing complementing development (hotels, restaurants, retail, etc.), they help support those businesses. For Lot J to ultimately work, we could use a hell of a lot more permanent residents. So mixed use should be something definitely pushed in the Sports District. Connecting the area to the downtown core with some real reliable mass transit (yeah the U2C thing isn't going to do it) would also help the Jags big time.

[KenFSU]

They may be a pipedream at the moment because of mere renderings, but I'm in the midwest and can visibly see the benefit that these Cordish major venue anchored projects have had in downtown KC/STL, and infact have moved into the latter phases. These were places that since suburban flight have severely suffered but are now alive with activity on a regular basis.

But at what expense? Kansas City is $1.5 billion in debt, but they're on the hook for almost $20 million annually from their general fund just for debt service on the Power and Light District. A full 2 percent of their annual city budget goes to Cordish.

Additionally, Cordish has a provision in the agreement where they can build virtually unlimited residential, and the city is forced to provide parking and subsidies. For A HUNDRED YEARS. We'll be dead, our kids will be dead, and KC will still be on the hook.

[landfall]

NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia are some of the most debt ridden cities in the country, they aren't exactly struggling though. Subsidising public-private partnerships for long term gain isn't unique to Kansas City. There is absolutely no one in any industry who is building anything here of significance without some element of public support.

[thelakelander]

The Landing, Hyatt and Bay Street (Elbow) are all results of public-private partnerships. If we want to get to the point where we can reduce the amount of incentives tossed around for these projects, at some point, we have to start clustering things together. As for the KC/Cordish/Lot J thing (well basically all P3s), we'll need to figure out at what number does a P3 make sense and at what number does it not.

[Steve]

Yea, these buildings are coming down:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-approves-permits-for-former-annex-courthouse-demolition

Strangely, while I think it's stupid to bring them down before a plan for the site is arranged, I feel much stronger about the Hogan Street demo for Fire Rescue. I just didn't see a scenario where whatever this site is, these buildings being a part of it.

Maybe I'm wrong.