Convention Center Wars

[heights unknown]

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/11/15/after-a-year-of-work-jacksonvilleconvention-center.html

I think this, along with the recent rezoning, can pretty clearly be read as Curry saying, "we're giving the money to Khan's Lot J/Shipyards project instead."

Also implies that a very large ask is likely incoming on that front, and that we're likely prepared to meet it.

Still think "on hold" is going to end up equaling "on hold until 2020 when the ramps start to come down."

I agree with what Curry is saying. If we build a convention center, and there is almost nothing downtown or in the urban core to lure or justify people choosing Jax as a destination for conventions, then we really shouldn't put the cart before the horse (as we've done in the past). 2nd thing, does Shad Khan have to have DIA's or the Mayor's approval to build a convention center? Could he just make the decision to build one on his own and his own property across from the stadium if he chooses? I am not at all frustrated or disagree with Mayor's concern; it is astutely justifiable and he has every reason to be cautious; we've made too many mistakes in this regard in the past, or knee jerk decisions without thinking which has led to failure for those decisions and nothing in return for downtown, the urban core or our city as a whole.

[dp8541]

Kahn does not own the property around the stadium, but I am sure the city would allow him to build a convention center in the stadium district, problem is he is not going to do that without financial help from the city.

[Captain Zissou]

Here's my reason for wanting the convention center: It helps retail/restaurant businesses in the core, particularly early in the week. Most bars wouldn't have a problem filling the place Thursday/Friday/Saturday. The problem is the business has to pay rent every day of the week.

exactly....this argument that there aren't enough dining and entertainment options downtown for a convention center is just stupid...of course there aren't...but does anyone think that those wouldn't open up if we actually started building a convention center. Its not like the center would open overnight...it would likely take 24+ months to build...plenty of time for the private market to step up. But right now they have no incentive.

How many dining and entertainment options are currently in the stadium district...?

I was at Cowford on wednesday and it did pretty solid business.  It wasn't 100% full, but everyone in my group was surprised how busy it was.  Last week I tried to eat at Olio for lunch on Wednesday and the area was SWAMPED with convention attendees.  I ended up having to eat at cowford (which I prefer, dinner was too expensive for what we got).  My gf works over there and she says events at the Hyatt regularly overwhelm the area during mealtime.  Why would we kill an economic driver for that area that is already in place?  Imagine how well the Bay Street District could do with a proper convention center?  More restaurants and bars, maybe an additional hotel nearby, more people outside. This is my #1 pick for the convention site, but I feel like the mayor's mind is already made up.

[itsfantastic1]

Also, as for there being nothing near the courthouse site; aren't there bars and restaurants on Bay St.? On Forsyth, isn't there the Florida Theater and a couple more bars? Isn't within walking distance of the city branded Elbow entertainment district? I'm not saying it's a Gaslamp district by any means, but that area seems to be the best in terms of space for  a convention center with surrounding entertainment.

Plus the surrounding area near the courthouse needs no subsidy, unlike the Shipyards. Nothing exists out at the stadium, it will literally repeat the mistakes of the Prime Osbourn by "if we build the convention center in the middle of nowhere; we will build other things after to support it." I'm not saying the 1 billion dollar option makes any sense, but that was due to a dumb RFP. The location is ideal.

[heights unknown]

Here's my reason for wanting the convention center: It helps retail/restaurant businesses in the core, particularly early in the week. Most bars wouldn't have a problem filling the place Thursday/Friday/Saturday. The problem is the business has to pay rent every day of the week.

exactly....this argument that there aren't enough dining and entertainment options downtown for a convention center is just stupid...of course there aren't...but does anyone think that those wouldn't open up if we actually started building a convention center. Its not like the center would open overnight...it would likely take 24+ months to build...plenty of time for the private market to step up. But right now they have no incentive.

How many dining and entertainment options are currently in the stadium district...?

I was at Cowford on wednesday and it did pretty solid business.  It wasn't 100% full, but everyone in my group was surprised how busy it was.  Last week I tried to eat at Olio for lunch on Wednesday and the area was SWAMPED with convention attendees.  I ended up having to eat at cowford (which I prefer, dinner was too expensive for what we got).  My gf works over there and she says events at the Hyatt regularly overwhelm the area during mealtime.  Why would we kill an economic driver for that area that is already in place?  Imagine how well the Bay Street District could do with a proper convention center?  More restaurants and bars, maybe an additional hotel nearby, more people outside. This is my #1 pick for the convention site, but I feel like the mayor's mind is already made up.

Then please educate me...what exactly is the Mayor's rationale for freezing up (though I agree with him) on progressing toward building and completing a convention center. WHAT, pray tell, would possibly be an ulterior motive behind him halting work on a convention center until all of the pieces are in place first. Please, someone, explain.

[vicupstate]

^^
He isn't killing the idea of a Convention Center, only putting one at the courthouse location. He is trying to eliminate that location from contention to allow his and Khan' plans to go forward to put it on Lot J.     

[KenFSU]

^Totally agree on the location. At the Courthouse site, you'd be within easy walking distance of Cowford, Bellwether, Bold City, 1904, Dos Gatos, Volstead, Olio, Indochine, Burrito Gallery, Bizarro Candy Apple, Breezys, Spliffs, Mathers Social, Joysticks, Bullbriar, proposed rooftop bars at Hotel Indigo and the Trio Courtyard, etc. Easy stroll to the Landing, and Vagabond, and Chamblins, and Sweet Pete's, and Hemming Park, and so many others. Plus, whatever ends up happening with the Berkman Hard Rock/arcade/ferris wheel and the USS Adams. It's also an easy walk to and across the Main Street Bridge and down toward Friendship Fountain. You've got Florida Theater and the Times-Union Performing Arts center right there as well.

All of the amenities listed above help contribute toward what makes Jacksonville unique.

Can't wrap my head around why you'd spend hundreds of millions of dollars subsidizing dozens of projects intended to create a more vibrant downtown, only to dump visitors a mile and a half away in the sports district so they can spend all their money at Chili's.

What's even crazier to me is the Jags' desire to develop, but insistence to do it at the sports complex. Yes, building an entertainment complex in the stadium district provides the Jags with a captive audience on game and concert days. But it also isolates them from the downtown workforce and residential community on every other day.

If Iguana built the proposed Cordish entertainment complex on the riverfront on the western edge of the Shipyards, adjacent to the Berkman and USS Adams, and the same Convention Center at the Courthouse property (at a lower cost to the city than any of the other bidders), and then provided a reliable transportation connection to the stadium, I think everybody wins. Downtown wins by proxy of keeping that $1 billiion+ investment within the central core. The taxpayers win by having the convention center and Cordish development complement, rather than cannibalize, all of the other publicly subsidized projects. Tourism wins, as conventioneers get the best of both worlds (authentic Jacksonville + big box entertainment). The project gets done faster and cheaper, there's not the urgency to chop down the Hart Bridge ramps and remediate a parking lot, and there's plenty of room along the riverfront for residential/hotel/office development going toward the stadium to happen organically.

Just kills me that we spend all this money on a 2014 study which suggests that we need to add more entertainment and amenities in order to be a successful convention city, and our solution is basically to just start over a mile down the road.

[Kerry]

Convention Center = silver bullet.  Except for the top 10 to 12 convention centers in the US, the vast majority of convention centers are primarily used by local residents for local events.  I don't mind having a new convention center because as a resident who attends various events at the current convention center I don't mind having nice things and civic building that people can be proud of, but anyone who thinks a convention center is going to be a catalyst that spurs adjacent economic development - you will be sorely disappointed.

[KenFSU]

Here's my reason for wanting the convention center: It helps retail/restaurant businesses in the core, particularly early in the week. Most bars wouldn't have a problem filling the place Thursday/Friday/Saturday. The problem is the business has to pay rent every day of the week.

exactly....this argument that there aren't enough dining and entertainment options downtown for a convention center is just stupid...of course there aren't...but does anyone think that those wouldn't open up if we actually started building a convention center. Its not like the center would open overnight...it would likely take 24+ months to build...plenty of time for the private market to step up. But right now they have no incentive.

How many dining and entertainment options are currently in the stadium district...?

I was at Cowford on wednesday and it did pretty solid business.  It wasn't 100% full, but everyone in my group was surprised how busy it was.  Last week I tried to eat at Olio for lunch on Wednesday and the area was SWAMPED with convention attendees.  I ended up having to eat at cowford (which I prefer, dinner was too expensive for what we got).  My gf works over there and she says events at the Hyatt regularly overwhelm the area during mealtime.  Why would we kill an economic driver for that area that is already in place?  Imagine how well the Bay Street District could do with a proper convention center?  More restaurants and bars, maybe an additional hotel nearby, more people outside. This is my #1 pick for the convention site, but I feel like the mayor's mind is already made up.

Then please educate me...what exactly is the Mayor's rationale for freezing up (though I agree with him) on progressing toward building and completing a convention center. WHAT, pray tell, would possibly be an ulterior motive behind him halting work on a convention center until all of the pieces are in place first. Please, someone, explain.

1. Earlier this year, the DIA (not COJ) issued an RFP for a Convention Center at the old Courthouse site.
2. Part of the intent of issuing the RFP was to gauge how much private interest there was in building a convention center in Jacksonville.
3. Three firms placed bids by the deadline, and all three clearly demonstrated that the private sector wasn't going to build a convention center for us, and that the cost of building what was required in the RFP (a massive complex with hotel and parking garage) was going to be astronomical.
4. Right after the Courthouse RFP closed, Shad Khan/Iguana sent in an unsolicited proposal for their own convention center, containing the same specs, but located on the Shipyards property near the stadium, rather than at the old Courthouse site. One of the firms who bid on the Courthouse site, Rimrock Devlin, reversed course suddenly, partnering with Khan on his proposal instead and insisting that the Shipyards is a better location.
5. In one of his last acts as CEO of the DIA, Aundra Wallace worked with the DIA to select a winner for the bid for the Courthouse site, which was Jacobs. Wallace said it was up to the city to ultimately decide where to build a convention center.
6. Wallace leaves the DIA for JAXUSA, and Curry's Chief of Staff takes over as interim CEO of the DIA.
7. Shad Khan's bid to buy Wembley stadium falls through, and the Jags start publicly talking about the need to find more revenue sources in Jacksonville to be viable here in the long-term; the convention center is specifically mentioned.
8. Some rumblings begin about the firms who bid on the Courthouse property potentially suing the city/DIA for acting in bad faith if they flip and go with a Shipyards convention center.
9. Concurrently, the Jaguars are also negotiating a potentially massive economic development agree with the City and Cordish for Lot J.
10) Curry tables the convention center conversation for the time being to focus on other public/private partnerships.

Taking everything at face value, Curry's decision was quite rational.

Issuing an RFP with such massive demands in the first place? Maybe you can justify it if the city thought that someone was going to come in and offer to build it for them with private dollars. Why not swing for the fences?

Knocking down the Courthouse and Annex without a definite decision on the property? Totally irrational.

[vicupstate]

Issuing an RFP when you already had two things telling you it was a pipe dream to expect anything other than massively subsidized proposals was irrational as well.

Those two things were 1) the 2014 study and 2) common sense.

The firms that submitted bids should have their expenses reimbursed because there was never the expectation nor the intention that any proposal would actually be accepted.

I can't help but think the city's credibility has not been tarnished by this whole charade, but then again, I can't imagine that the city has much credibility anyway.

[thelakelander]

The 2014 study didn't mean much if it was framed in "new" convention center talk instead of moving the exhibition hall out of the old train station. We're already in the business. Been in it since 1985. The conversation and analysis needs to be reframed to Jax's reality vs the unachievable and unrealistic dreams. For the amount of subsidies being dished out to projects like Berkman and the District, we can figure out a viable solution that maximizes our existing investments.

[FlaBoy]

With the indecision here now, is there anyway to push the pause button in demolishing the Annex building with its history and density?

[Kerry]

The side facing the river already has truck size holes in it.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, they're coming down. Whoever got that demo contract is getting their money whether it makes sense for the taxpayers or not.

[vicupstate]

If you ask me, the only reason these buildings are coming down is because someone (Curry or Khan, most likely) think they are ugly.