Convention Center Wars

[thelakelander]

I wonder how the city will wiggle out of this. Two of the proposals seem like they have viable teams, although I can't imagine the COJ giving $229 million in incentives to Preston Hollow.

On the surface, Jacobs sounds the most feasible from a market and development perspective but the devil is in the details to what the city would have to pay back over time. Like what exactly is involved in what the city would be on the hook for paying back? Just the convention center and it's support facilities or the additional commercial and residential development, Skyway extension, etc?

It will be interesting to see the concept plans for each, to be able to compare with what Khan has proposed at the Shipyards. Will Iguana release how much public money they want, so a true comparison can take place?

[Tacachale]

It will be interesting to see the concept plans for each, to be able to compare with what Khan has proposed at the Shipyards. Will Iguana release how much public money they want, so a true comparison can take place?

I think we know the answer to that.

[thelakelander]

Rimrock


Jacobs

[Steve]

Looking at the Rimrock one....they plan on filling in the river where they are removing the old Courthouse Parking lot? huh.

[downtownbrown]

good catch.  Looks like about half way, which will get them to deep enough water for bigger boats. 

[Steve]

good catch.  Looks like about half way, which will get them to deep enough water for bigger boats. 

Looks like all the way - it's forward of the riverfront face of the Hyatt, which is only separated from the river by the dropoff, Coastline Drive, and the Riverwalk. Construction crews are literally tearing out that site which is currently a parking lot (which was really a bridge over the river) right now.

[heights unknown]

I like the Jacobs rendering better, but either would be ok. A little "verticality" as someone said...25 stories plus?

[downtownbrown]

^^yeah, could be a total fill in.  That is a game changer since it at least doubles the footprint, reroutes the state approved roadways, and basically is a complete do-over for the city planners. 

[icarus]

Preston Hollow's ask on the incentives is way out of the ballpark.  Rimrock's design looks great but is a non-starter from an environmental and permitting perspective ( the likelihood of filling in that section of St. John's River is nil).  Jacobs proposal is interesting but if the all the convention space is elevated ... the logistics alone would kill a lot of potential conventions.  Maybe, its just me but I feel all three proposals missed the mark significantly.

If Berkman II is being converted to hotel space, having the convention center near the stadium and the potential for additional exhibition space at amphitheater and stadium makes more sense.  Plus, the backers for Khan proposal bring a lot of experience and deeper pockets to the table.

[Steve]

Jacobs proposal is interesting but if the all the convention space is elevated ... the logistics alone would kill a lot of potential conventions.

Construction costs aside, it depends on the exact layouts. Many convention centers are multi-story, though most have dock doors at the level of the main exhibit hall.

[Steve]

Jacobs proposal is interesting but if the all the convention space is elevated ... the logistics alone would kill a lot of potential conventions.

Construction costs aside, it depends on the exact layouts. Many convention centers are multi-story, though most have dock doors at the level of the main exhibit hall.

Looking again at the rendering....there aren't going to be dock doors that high as it looks like the main exhibit hall is on level 8. It just means that they would need to plan for a bunch of freight elevators. Again, not unheard of but it certainly adds some complexity. For example, I'm pretty sure the Javits Center in New York only has their dock doors on floor 1, but the main exhibit halls are on floors 1 and 3.

Then again...it's New York.

[thelakelander]

Jacobs proposal is interesting but if the all the convention space is elevated ... the logistics alone would kill a lot of potential conventions.

Construction costs aside, it depends on the exact layouts. Many convention centers are multi-story, though most have dock doors at the level of the main exhibit hall.

Yeah, I think it's way too early to say they all miss the mark. I'd like to see and learn about each concept in greater detail. As for Berkman II, I wouldn't base anything convention center related on something being billed as Dave & Busters on steroids.  I'd also like to see some transparency from Iguana so a real comparative evaluation of what's needed from the public can be made.

[KenFSU]

Looking at the Rimrock one....they plan on filling in the river where they are removing the old Courthouse Parking lot? huh.

For what it's worth, in the lead-up to the RFP, the city specifically mentioned re-building the Coastline deck as an option for a new convention center.

That said, if I'm the city, I throw Rimrock's proposal for the site in the trash.

I wouldn't want anyone leading this project who has gone on record as saying it would be a mistake to build a convention center on the Courthouse site.

[jaxnyc79]

Without seeing the full proposal, I like that the Jacobs summary referenced private sources of capital - perhaps they're connected with a network of private equity and other shadow banking lenders with dry powder to burn on a lending arrangement for something like this.  Payback should be revenue sharing; no new out-of-pocket financial obligations for the city. 

I really loathe the idea of these mammoth parking garages on this property so close to the waterfront.  Can this stretch of waterfront be pedestrian-only...walker-centric.  These plans (and frankly the RFP) reference what appears to be an over-abundance of front door parking for what is supposed to be a CBD Center.  Is it too much to ask conventioneers to walk a couple blocks - frankly, most of them will probably take a ride share over anyway?

Personally, I don't think any one of these plans will get done, and in 2028, this message board will still be debating the merits of a new convention center.  I'd much rather use the incentive money to fund Atkins' mixed-use, innovation corridor for JEA deeper into the heart of Downtown.  My view is we should figure out how to make downtown a routine and differentiated draw for the region's denizens, independent of some big and expensive box in the CBD, and once we figure that out, I'll be on board with a Convention Center Investment.

[KenFSU]

Per the JBJ, the decision about whether to build at the Courthouse or at the Shipyards is going to ultimately lie with Curry.

Looks like the Preston Hollow proposal also involves rebuilding that desk over Coastline as well:



This whole thing is going to be really interesting to follow.

The Jacobs plan is obscenely expensive ($700 million+, versus ~$450 million for the three other options). From the scant details available, it also sounds like the proposal that would require the most public contribution.

The Preston Hollow and Rimrock plans will involve sitework that would make that portion of the Shipyards property blush, between demolishing the Courthouse and Annex and then rebuilding the bridge/deck off Coastline.

Everything else held constant, the Courthouse site is the better location.

But if it means having to rebuild the deck, add another 1,800 space garage on/near the river, and carry another $100-$200 million in debt, it gets a little murkier. Particularly when there's a guaranteed offer on the table to develop much-needed (if flawed in its current iteration) mixed use on the Courthouse site if the Shipyards location is chosen.

Throw in the pressure of appeasing the Jags, and Curry's going to have a tough decision to make.

With Curry's stated goal of redeveloping the riverfront from the Courthouse to the stadium though, my money's on him going with Iguana. Guarantees two new developments and keeps the Jags happy.