A Look at the Emerald Necklace Trails Master Plan

[Keith-N-Jax]

Really like what they did or will do in front of Prime Osborne

[marcuscnelson]

If we shut down the Skyway today, we'd free up $10M in local funds to put into this project.  Throw in state and federal matching funds and we could have this done in a handful of years.

Except shutting down the Skyway requires JTA to pay back $25 million in federal grants. Which not only wipes out your $10 million, but then requires pulling out another $15 million to end up with less.

[fieldafm]

Really like what they did or will do in front of Prime Osborne

I don't expect the end product to look anything like that. Eventually, the City will reconstruct Park Street in Brooklyn. Last year the DIA paid a consultant to start preliminary work and develop a scope on the Park Street road diet. Their recommendations do not match up to the renderings presented by Groundworks.  It doesn't look like Groundworks did much to coordinate with various stakeholders (particularly the private landowners that would be giving up their property within these renderings) when putting together these renderings. Right now, they are nothing more than that= renderings.

As Lakelander said:

Once real analysis begins many of those routes will either disappear or materialize in other forms and alignments.

[Captain Zissou]

It doesn't look like Groundworks did much to coordinate with various stakeholders (particularly the private landowners that would be giving up their property within these renderings) when putting together these renderings.

Welcome to Jacksonville, where nobody coordinates anything!

[Steve]

Looks like Phase 1 will begin in the Fall:

https://news.wjct.org/post/emerald-trail-construction-begins-fall-30-mile-jax-urban-path#_ga=2.154212913.865272569.1592571627-2049863580.1592571627

[Charles Hunter]

Not to nitpick (OK, to nitpick), it would be nice if there were more detail on the "Park Street Bridge" portion of the video. Without the caption, I did not know the location of that part of the video.

[Captain Zissou]

I know it's no longer the case, but I still associate this with the Bacon Barge and the early years of groundwork Jax.  I'm not holding my breath for the work to start.

[Bill Hoff]

I know it's no longer the case, but I still associate this with the Bacon Barge and the early years of groundwork Jax.  I'm not holding my breath for the work to start.

It's happening.

[Steve]

I know it's no longer the case, but I still associate this with the Bacon Barge and the early years of groundwork Jax.  I'm not holding my breath for the work to start.

In fairness GW Jax has brought some weight to the organization since those days. Plus the money has been secured.

[thelakelander]

I'm pretty confident the LaVilla Link will become reality. There's a lot of momentum and funding behind it. Hopefully it will spur community support and forward movement on many of the other Emerald Trail segments.

[bl8jaxnative]

Except shutting down the Skyway requires JTA to pay back $25 million in federal grants. Which not only wipes out your $10 million, but then requires pulling out another $15 million to end up with less.

That's been a claim that's floated around for a long time.  However

a) There's no reason why Reps couldn't amend a bill to end this requirement

b) Even if 100% accurate and not prorated, that $25 million..... we break even after not running it a couple of years

c) I've never been able to find source material for this claim.  Does anyone know exactly what legislation is in play that requires this?  Does anyone have copies of the actual agreements with the Feds on this?

[jaxlongtimer]

Except shutting down the Skyway requires JTA to pay back $25 million in federal grants. Which not only wipes out your $10 million, but then requires pulling out another $15 million to end up with less.

That's been a claim that's floated around for a long time.  However

a) There's no reason why Reps couldn't amend a bill to end this requirement

b) Even if 100% accurate and not prorated, that $25 million..... we break even after not running it a couple of years

c) I've never been able to find source material for this claim.  Does anyone know exactly what legislation is in play that requires this?  Does anyone have copies of the actual agreements with the Feds on this?

^Agree on this,  Especially (a).  The Skyway was sold as a "demonstration project."  It was really a PORK BARREL (yes, in caps!) project promoted by Corrine Brown and her Republican friends to take "free" federal funds.  Forget that locals are on the hook for decades of operating losses in the tens of millions of dollars. 

Rather than admitting that the "demonstration project" failed (i.e. it did its "job" by showing the Skyway is not a viable transportation alternative although that was known before it was built) and asking for forgiveness of any paybacks (certainly Curry and Rutherford could get that from their friend Trump), JTA keeps trying to salvage it by wasting millions more on PORK BARREL V 2.0, autonomous vehicles.  Typical of Jacksonville chasing rainbows and failing to learn lessons of the past.

[Charles Hunter]

^Agree on this,  Especially (a).  The Skyway was sold as a "demonstration project."  It was really a PORK BARREL (yes, in caps!) project promoted by Corrine Brown and her Republican friends to take "free" federal funds.  Forget that locals are on the hook for decades of operating losses in the tens of millions of dollars. 

Corrine Brown was not in Congress when the Demonstration Project grants were awarded in the mid-1970s; she was first elected to Congress in 1992 (term began 1993). She was in the Florida Legislature between 1980 and 1988, which did not have a whole lot to do with the USDOT grants to JTA for the Skyway. As with all federal transit grants, Florida DOT splits the non-federal share with the local government (typically either 25% or 10% for each). Once she reached Congress, she worked to assure continued funding for the existing Skyway.

[fieldafm]

Except shutting down the Skyway requires JTA to pay back $25 million in federal grants. Which not only wipes out your $10 million, but then requires pulling out another $15 million to end up with less.

That's been a claim that's floated around for a long time.  However

a) There's no reason why Reps couldn't amend a bill to end this requirement

b) Even if 100% accurate and not prorated, that $25 million..... we break even after not running it a couple of years

c) I've never been able to find source material for this claim.  Does anyone know exactly what legislation is in play that requires this?  Does anyone have copies of the actual agreements with the Feds on this?

^Agree on this,  Especially (a).  The Skyway was sold as a "demonstration project."  It was really a PORK BARREL (yes, in caps!) project promoted by Corrine Brown and her Republican friends to take "free" federal funds.  Forget that locals are on the hook for decades of operating losses in the tens of millions of dollars. 

Rather than admitting that the "demonstration project" failed (i.e. it did its "job" by showing the Skyway is not a viable transportation alternative although that was known before it was built) and asking for forgiveness of any paybacks (certainly Curry and Rutherford could get that from their friend Trump), JTA keeps trying to salvage it by wasting millions more on PORK BARREL V 2.0, autonomous vehicles.  Typical of Jacksonville chasing rainbows and failing to learn lessons of the past.

While Corrine Brown did a tremendous amount to secure funds for JTA throughout her political career, planning for the Downtown People Mover (what became the Skyway) began in the early 1970's.  Here is the feasibility study from 1979 (https://digitalcommons.unf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=jaxdoc). Here is the initial proposal prepared by the Hans Tanzler administration when applying for the program in 1976: (https://www.jtafla.com/media/Documents/General/Skyway/7_jacksonville-downtown-people-mover-june-30-1976/1003/7_jacksonville-downtown-people-mover-june-30-1976.pdf).

Corrine Brown didn't become a Congresswoman until 1992, seven years after the Skyway received funding from the Urban Mass Transportation Administration (now known as the FTA). Although, she did work to secure federal funds for the Skyway expansion over the river and the accompanying construction of JTA's Kings Ave parking garage... characterizing the Skyway as nothing more than a Corrine Brown pork-barrel project is patently false.


During the last useful life study completed in 2015, if the Skyway was to be permanently shutdown, the payback requirement was calculated as $33.5mm being owed to the FTA and $12.1mm being owed to FDOT.


The federal government will definitely require payback. Last year, for instance, the Mayor's office quietly moved nearly $2mm through the City Council appropriation process in anticipation of paying back the National Park Service for the eventual repurposing of Metropolitan Park.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I never characterized the Skyway as a "Corrine Brown pork barrel project."  I did say she promoted it which you just backed up and admitted that she was responsible for a large (50+%?) portion of today's Skyway investment.  I also allowed that others were aligned with her including the usual group of politically involved  "business leaders" which I identified as her "Republican Friends" as it is well known she was the rare Democrat who catered to their interests.  I am happy to add other "co-conspirators" to the list with your assistance and agree there is plenty of blame to go around.  Ms. Brown just happened to be the most modern face of the project which she appeared to relish.  If one wants credit for the "good" they also have to take the blame.

Comparing the payback for Metro Park to the Skyway is false equivalency.  Different agencies, different project, different issues.  Metro Park was supposed to be a park in perpetuity, not a demonstration project of limited life.  Metro Park's demise is on the table to benefit a private billionaire developer, Mr. Khan, at the expense of the public.  Doing away with the Skyway is just the opposite as it would stop the bleeding of the public.

Curry has successfully milked the Federal teat for hundreds of millions of dollars for the port, JTA projects, Hart Bridge ramp removal, interstate construction projects, the innovation corridor, hurricane relief, COVID relief, and more.  The Skyway Forgiveness Dollars, whatever the final number is, pale in comparison.  You can't convince me that, politically, Trump of all people, along wtih DeSantis, can't be persuaded to waive the penalties on the Skyway for our kiss-ass mayor.  Further, as noted by bl8jaxnative, eliminating the cost of continuing the operations of the Skyway would provide a pretty quick payback if the penalty was paid in full.

P.S. If you look at the hundreds of millions of dollars Curry has found, or plans on finding, for the Landing, the Hart Bridge ramps, City Hall/Courthouse demolitions, Lot J incentives, port dredging, paying off the police and fire for the fake pension reform, etc. the City could find the dollars for this.  Not so much in comparison.