The District wants $26 million in public incentives

[TimmyB]

I'll repeat: three years down the road and the developer is now, AT THE LAST MINUTE, completely changing all the details of how this is being paid for. And the changes involve someone else (namely me and you) paying for what appears to be a hell of a lot. This was supposed to close last year and out of nowhere the developer just completely rewrote the financing and asked for another extension. BS if you ask me.

I've sold enough real estate to know this is NOT how you operate.  The $26 million subsidy should have been discussed at least a year ago.

Rummell tried to reframe this and he is 100% wrong. It's because of last minute changes like he is proposing that nothing gets done around here.

I just read the article in the JBJ and could not agree with you more.  This sounds fishy as hell and now that someone wants to give it a closer look, he starts screaming and calling names.  Sounds like he is hiding something and wants to get this passed ASAP before someone actually sees what is happening.

[jaxnyc79]

What the hell is wrong with your God-forsaken City.  First, the city paper (Times-Union) issues an editorial supporting a downtown mixed-use project (like seriously, isn't there something else to weigh in on), and then this morning, I read some retributive article on Anne-Brosche, that she's "walking back her stance on enforcing pedestrian laws," like Anne-Brosche is a flip-flopper who wants lawlessness.  Like is this what happens when Peter Rummel doesn't get his way?  An onslaught.  I say to hell with "the District-Live Well Lived."  I'm already stressed and angered by it.

[thelakelander]

In the meantime, Broadstone continues to go up next door to the District without incentives. Structured parking garage and all.

[jaxnyc79]

In the meantime, Broadstone continues to go up next door to the District without incentives. Structured parking garage and all.

When I see the online presentation of the District, I do like the attempt to create an urban village that could set a precedent for (or inspire) other urban-village style projects throughout the urban core.  Personally, I like that style for Jax versus randomly-placed big block projects and nothing really tied together to feel communal.  Having said that, I don't think Elements was honest in the JEA bid process, and I hate how they're handling the PR in the wake of releasing the proposal.  Sending an email out to your good ole boy network just because City Council forms a committee to study a complex transaction, especially after the disasters of the early 2000s with the Shipyards, is wholly inappropriate.  Rummell has a lot of f—�ing nerve.  I want to know the names on that email distribution. 

[thelakelander]

LOL at that TU editorial. The best way to protect the taxpayer is to let Elements do what they said they were originally going to do. That would have been best for the Shipyards too, even if it would have become more shipping and logistics related, which was the original intended use two decades ago. We would have had a private company creating logistics jobs, the property would have been on the tax rolls and the millions in tax money burned could have went to better use in the heart of the city. Jumping in this deal is simply more of the same. If Elements bit off too much than they can chew, taxpayers shouldn't be assuming the risk to buy the dream that's been sold for this site over the last three or four years.

When I see the online presentation of the District, I do like the attempt to create an urban village that could set a precedent for (or inspire) other urban-village style projects throughout the urban core.  Personally, I like that style for Jax versus randomly-placed big block projects and nothing really tied together to feel communal.

I've learned over the years to not get caught up in conceptual development proposals. Much of the stuff we've been shown with the District and Shipyards is all smoke and mirrors. People assume what's in the pretty pictures will actually be built and built at record speed. In reality, it would take decades for the local market to support what's shown. Throw in economic recessions and changes in the market and probably 80% of what's shown in those conceptual sketches never happens. As for the "urban village", the precedent was set back in the 19th century. It's the downtown Northbank and its street grid. The bones are already there. The design guidelines are already in place. We just have to stick with them for infill, while also enhancing the things we already have.

The Laura Trio, Barnett, 20 West Adams, Hotel Indigo are all much smaller projects. However, they'll have twice as much positive impact on downtown, its vibe and image because they are being built in that original urban pedestrian scale setting.

Having said that, I don't think Elements was honest in the JEA bid process, and I hate how they're handling the PR in the wake of releasing the proposal.  Sending an email out to your good ole boy network just because City Council forms a committee to study a complex transaction, especially after the disasters of the early 2000s with the Shipyards, is wholly inappropriate.  Rummell has a lot of f—�ing nerve.  I want to know the names on that email distribution.

The bold part is the worse part of this whole thing. The lack of transparency really smells. When deals smell, it's usually the taxpayer that ends up getting fleeced.

[jaxnyc79]

LOL at that TU editorial. The best way to protect the taxpayer is to let Elements do what they said they were originally going to do. That would have been best for the Shipyards too, even if it would have become more shipping and logistics related, which was the original intended use two decades ago. We would have had a private company creating logistics jobs, the property would have been on the tax rolls and the millions in tax money burned could have went to better use in the heart of the city. Jumping in this deal is simply more of the same. If Elements bit off too much than they can chew, taxpayers shouldn't be assuming the risk to buy the dream that's been sold for this site over the last three or four years.

When I see the online presentation of the District, I do like the attempt to create an urban village that could set a precedent for (or inspire) other urban-village style projects throughout the urban core.  Personally, I like that style for Jax versus randomly-placed big block projects and nothing really tied together to feel communal.

I've learned over the years to not get caught up in conceptual development proposals. Much of the stuff we've been shown with the District and Shipyards is all smoke and mirrors. People assume what's in the pretty pictures will actually be built and built at record speed. In reality, it would take decades for the local market to support what's shown. Throw in economic recessions and changes in the market and probably 80% of what's shown in those conceptual sketches never happens. As for the "urban village", the precedent was set back in the 19th century. It's the downtown Northbank and its street grid. The bones are already there. The design guidelines are already in place. We just have to stick with them for infill, while also enhancing the things we already have.

The Laura Trio, Barnett, 20 West Adams, Hotel Indigo are all much smaller projects. However, they'll have twice as much positive impact on downtown, its vibe and image because they are being built in that original urban pedestrian scale setting.

Having said that, I don't think Elements was honest in the JEA bid process, and I hate how they're handling the PR in the wake of releasing the proposal.  Sending an email out to your good ole boy network just because City Council forms a committee to study a complex transaction, especially after the disasters of the early 2000s with the Shipyards, is wholly inappropriate.  Rummell has a lot of f—�ing nerve.  I want to know the names on that email distribution.

The bold part is the worse part of this whole thing. The lack of transparency really smells. When deals smell, it's usually the taxpayer that ends up getting fleeced.

Question though: we've talked about all the property the city owns throughout downtown, and putting that to other uses, perhaps for residential infill.  What would be the structure of a land giveaway to these other uses?  In the case of the Landing, the city leased the property to development use (which is now a disaster of course).  But let's say the focus of a land giveaway throughout downtown was going to be residential.  Maybe the city wouldn't just assign title at the outset, but perhaps give out development rights while retaining ownership of the underlying property, and then transferring ownership once the property was satisfactorily developed?

[jaxnyc79]

LOL at that TU editorial. The best way to protect the taxpayer is to let Elements do what they said they were originally going to do. That would have been best for the Shipyards too, even if it would have become more shipping and logistics related, which was the original intended use two decades ago. We would have had a private company creating logistics jobs, the property would have been on the tax rolls and the millions in tax money burned could have went to better use in the heart of the city. Jumping in this deal is simply more of the same. If Elements bit off too much than they can chew, taxpayers shouldn't be assuming the risk to buy the dream that's been sold for this site over the last three or four years.

When I see the online presentation of the District, I do like the attempt to create an urban village that could set a precedent for (or inspire) other urban-village style projects throughout the urban core.  Personally, I like that style for Jax versus randomly-placed big block projects and nothing really tied together to feel communal.

I've learned over the years to not get caught up in conceptual development proposals. Much of the stuff we've been shown with the District and Shipyards is all smoke and mirrors. People assume what's in the pretty pictures will actually be built and built at record speed. In reality, it would take decades for the local market to support what's shown. Throw in economic recessions and changes in the market and probably 80% of what's shown in those conceptual sketches never happens. As for the "urban village", the precedent was set back in the 19th century. It's the downtown Northbank and its street grid. The bones are already there. The design guidelines are already in place. We just have to stick with them for infill, while also enhancing the things we already have.

The Laura Trio, Barnett, 20 West Adams, Hotel Indigo are all much smaller projects. However, they'll have twice as much positive impact on downtown, its vibe and image because they are being built in that original urban pedestrian scale setting.

Having said that, I don't think Elements was honest in the JEA bid process, and I hate how they're handling the PR in the wake of releasing the proposal.  Sending an email out to your good ole boy network just because City Council forms a committee to study a complex transaction, especially after the disasters of the early 2000s with the Shipyards, is wholly inappropriate.  Rummell has a lot of f—�ing nerve.  I want to know the names on that email distribution.

The bold part is the worse part of this whole thing. The lack of transparency really smells. When deals smell, it's usually the taxpayer that ends up getting fleeced.

You make a great point about Shipyards use.  It's sitting there fenced off and just adds to the perception of a forlorn downtown.  Is it too contaminated for people to even walk on it?  Like could a riverfront festival marketplace under tents take place there, even? 

[thelakelander]

People park there for the Jags games. Every now and then, you'll find a person walking their dog out there. The waterfront is largely fenced off because the bulkhead work that a previous defunct developer was doing is incomplete.

[jaxnyc79]

People park there for the Jags games. Every now and then, you'll find a person walking their dog out there. The waterfront is largely fenced off because the bulkhead work that a previous defunct developer was doing is incomplete.

So a version of the Riverside Arts Market here (with tents for shade)?  Is that a crazy idea?

[Tacachale]

People park there for the Jags games. Every now and then, you'll find a person walking their dog out there. The waterfront is largely fenced off because the bulkhead work that a previous defunct developer was doing is incomplete.

So a version of the Riverside Arts Market here (with tents for shade)?  Is that a crazy idea?

No demand for that and no one to run it.

[Tacachale]

This isn't similar to the Shipyards deal. In that deal, the city gave incentive money for the public use portions only. The developer later defrauded the city by kiting that money for other things. They should have paid up a lot more than they did, but the city did get the land in the fallout.

This deal appears to want incentives far beyond what the public use of the development will be. It's up front about what the money will go to but it's a huge ask.

[Tacachale]

Mayor Curry isn't weighing in until DIA and council vets it. Meaning, he's going to wait to see what the polls say.

[thelakelander]

This isn't similar to the Shipyards deal. In that deal, the city gave incentive money for the public use portions only. The developer later defrauded the city by kiting that money for other things. They should have paid up a lot more than they did, but the city did get the land in the fallout.

This deal appears to want incentives far beyond what the public use of the development will be. It's up front about what the money will go to but it's a huge ask.

The details of the deals are different.  However, they both are similar in that the city got involved when it didn't have too. In the Shipyards example, the worse thing that could have happened by not getting involved is Spence buying that property and using it for industrial use. In this case, the worse thing that could happen is the Elements proposal dies and JEA ends up having someone else pay something less than +18 million for the land. 

[Tacachale]

This isn't similar to the Shipyards deal. In that deal, the city gave incentive money for the public use portions only. The developer later defrauded the city by kiting that money for other things. They should have paid up a lot more than they did, but the city did get the land in the fallout.

This deal appears to want incentives far beyond what the public use of the development will be. It's up front about what the money will go to but it's a huge ask.

The details of the deals are different.  However, they both are similar in that the city got involved when it didn't have too. In the Shipyards example, the worse thing that could have happened by not getting involved is Spence buying that property and using it for industrial use. In this case, the worse thing that could happen is the Elements proposal dies and JEA ends up having someone else pay something less than +18 million for the land.

The Spences didn't have the money or the ability to do anything with the site regardless of incentives. Otherwise they wouldn't have stolen the city's money in the mixed use project that did get approved. It would still be sitting there empty in their hands, or sold off (and probably still empty, without incentives). The only difference is that the city wouldn't have the land.

[thelakelander]

I was always under the impression the Spences purchased the property to build a warehouse and not a mixed-use development. They've built a few outside of downtown since. It's also not a major negative IMO if the city didn't own the contaminated property, if a warehouse was on it or if it were sold off and sitting empty in private hands. It's situated in the location that lends itself to not being the major redevelopment catalyst that everyone dreams of. If these types of proposals like the District fail to materialize, DT Jax won't suffer.

With that said, it's pretty interesting that the two large tracts of empty waterfront in DT are the two parcels owned by COJ and JEA, where we've been dreaming for 20 years for luxury condos and uses. Even Commodores Point, is a major economic plus with North Florida Shipyards and the other industrial uses paying property taxes and higher wages to their employees. It's not always a negative to not put the public at risk by dealing with entities to do projects they may not have the capacity to pull off.