The District signs deal for a riverfront hotel on the Southbank

[jaxnyc79]

I'm back to typing on the phone now but Deerwood isn't close to being self sufficient and auto centric policies aren't driven by auto centric market demand. Growth patterns in this country are driven by those invested in making money off of it. We the consumers are simply sheep, but that discussion is for another day. There's a market for downtown, as proven by the current occupancy rate. However, that market isn't necessarily for overpriced, upscale living. If Rummell wants incentives, it would be interesting to see why he needs them when it appears his neighbor is currently building their apartment development without them.

Yes, we can at least agree on Southbank incentives for upscale apartments.  Night night:)

[jaxnyc79]

By the way, to make this more complicated, I do have a nuanced view on this as it relates to historic building renovations.  To me, they are more fine art restorations - the revitalization of a cultural relic.  What's happening with Barnett and Laura Street Trio are very different, in my opinion, than the District.  I will say that as of now, I'm opposed to the millions in incentives requested by Vestcor for their 2nd project adjacent to Lofts at LaVilla.

[MusicMan]

Getting back to incentives for Rummel, has he proceeded from Day 1 with no promise of incentives, and now at the last moment, he is insisting on some? Am I reading the tea leaves correctly?

[fieldafm]

By the way, to make this more complicated, I do have a nuanced view on this as it relates to historic building renovations.  To me, they are more fine art restorations - the revitalization of a cultural relic.  What's happening with Barnett and Laura Street Trio are very different, in my opinion, than the District.  I will say that as of now, I'm opposed to the millions in incentives requested by Vestcor for their 2nd project adjacent to Lofts at LaVilla.

Then you are against affordable housing within the context of our current zoning laws. With construction costs and land acquisition costs as they are in today's market.... an affordable/workforce housing project like Vestcor's two projects under construction in LaVilla DO NOT work w/out being incentivized.  There is a huge hole in bringing those projects to market (probably in the $8-12mm range) without some form of subsidies.

Since current zoning laws (and NIMBYism) discourage a particular type of middle income housing stock (4-6 unit multifamily, rooming houses, ADU's, etc), then large-scale, subsidized multi-family projects are pretty much the only real tool available to increase housing stock for those earning less then median wages.

If you know of many people that are willing to build something knowing they will lose a significant amount of money in the process, please have them call me so I can take advantage of their generosity in the most humanely way possible before they go broke.

[thelakelander]

Also, Vestcor's affordable housing projects are largely incentived through a federal program....not local. They specialize in these types of projects outside of Jax as well. The federal affordable housing program isn't a downtown vs suburban thing. We have a few in the burbs as well.

[jaxnyc79]

Also, Vestcor's affordable housing projects are largely incentived through a federal program....not local. They specialize in these types of projects outside of Jax as well. The federal affordable housing program isn't a downtown vs suburban thing. We have a few in the burbs as well.

Yes, I'm aware that Vestcor is getting Federal subsidies.  In my view, Vestcor should continue with that form of subsidy, and not ask for additional subsidies from the city just for the sake of investing downtown, unless it is a subsidy that creates a feature that can be directly enjoyed by the public at large - for example, a pocket park, or enhanced sidewalks, or shade features, et cetera.  Ideally, such features provide a direct benefit to the public at large, while at the same time enhancing the value and attractiveness of the project to its residents.  If Trump's government massively devolves affordable housing finance to the local level, well we can cross that bridge when we come to it. 

[Tacachale]

Also, Vestcor's affordable housing projects are largely incentived through a federal program....not local. They specialize in these types of projects outside of Jax as well. The federal affordable housing program isn't a downtown vs suburban thing. We have a few in the burbs as well.

Yes, I'm aware that Vestcor is getting Federal subsidies.  In my view, Vestcor should continue with that form of subsidy, and not ask for additional subsidies from the city just for the sake of investing downtown, unless it is a subsidy that creates a feature that can be directly enjoyed by the public at large - for example, a pocket park, or enhanced sidewalks, or shade features, et cetera.  Ideally, such features provide a direct benefit to the public at large, while at the same time enhancing the value and attractiveness of the project to its residents.  If Trump's government massively devolves affordable housing finance to the local level, well we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

That seems backwards. If we want investment downtown, we're going to have to provide incentives, or we'll be in the same situation we've been in for the last 10 years where nothing happens. And we do want investment in terms of residential units, it's been recognized for decades that that's a major piece missing for revitalization.

[jaxnyc79]

Lol, Jax isn't new to "incentives."  They've been happening downtown for at least a generation, and downtown is still full of empty lots and misadventures.  Also, carefully read my description of subsidy - if it's a subsidy that the public can enjoy directly - I'm supportive.  Jax should do all it can to prep downtown for investment - to look after the basics of an urban and walkable and transit-oriented infrastructure.  Jax should invest in re-branding downtown - I know funding came from private sources, but One Spark was beginning to re-brand the entire region as one of innovation and entrepreneurial rigor with downtown as its epicenter.  But doling out dollars to private developers - sorry, but I'm still against it.

[Tacachale]

Lol, Jax isn't new to "incentives."  They've been happening downtown for at least a generation, and downtown is still full of empty lots and misadventures.  Also, carefully read my description of subsidy - if it's a subsidy that the public can enjoy directly - I'm supportive.  Jax should do all it can to prep downtown for investment - to look after the basics of an urban and walkable and transit-oriented infrastructure.  Jax should invest in re-branding downtown - I know funding came from private sources, but One Spark was beginning to re-brand the entire region as one of innovation and entrepreneurial rigor with downtown as its epicenter.  But doling out dollars to private developers - sorry, but I'm still against it.

Back in the 90s and early 2000s when we were incentivizing residential development downtown, it got built and was an improvement. When we stopped, it stopped. Growth hasn't been for the better since then.

[billy]

We may be talking of federal incentives, especially Historic Tax Credits, in the past tense since the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (aka Early Xmas For Scrooge McDuck  Act) was passed by the Senate at 1:50 AM. I think LIHTC survived. This is really really bad.

[MusicMan]

Another of my issues with these super huge proposal/contracts/development plans is they are basically worthless.

Rummell knows he can walk at the last minute and outside of a small expenditure ($2 mil) which he has probably used as a deduction on his tax returns he owes nobody nothing.  And a premium piece of real estate has been tied up for almost 3 years. It's maddening.

Same can be said for The Shipyards. While I have more confidence in Shad Khan we still don't know when contstruction will begin (or truly IF IT WILL) and what the final product will be.  And another prime piece of real estate tied up for an undetermined amount of time.

I'm pretty sure we were making jokes about IKEA opening before anyone even broke ground on any of these proposals 2 years ago.
Lo and behold........

(Or maybe that was Publix San Marco.....)

[billy]

Apparently a lot of the tax credits survived, although the market for them may be diminished.

[jaxnyc79]

A partial expose on the current state of the District real estate transaction in the Times Union this morning.  So let me get this straight...put in the highest bid, close out the other two bidders, and then negotiate the city's acquisition while you get development rights?  To be fair, a lot of details are missing but these recent events fail to pass the smell test. 

[MusicMan]

Here's the link. 

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-12-01/move-city-buy-riverfront-land-development-puzzles-officials

What a crock of shit.  Reading the quotes is like Trump's famous line about the complexity of healthcare. 

Literally these guys are blowing smoke up every ass at JEA.  I can see a lawsuit in the near future that shuts the whole thing down.

I have pretty much lost all respect for Lori Boyer at this point. She has become a total shill for Jax 'Old Money.'

"She (Boyer) said if the city is going to put money toward the project — for things like installing underground infrastructure necessary for development — then assuming ownership of the property would secure the city's investment."

HUH?  What the f$#k is she talking about?  She must have come up with this idea while the developers were buying her dinner at BB's.

LB: "Hey guys, thanks for lunch. How 'bout this. We'll buy the real estate and prep the site, you can develop it and make the money. Sound good?"

3 YEARS AFTER THE BID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jaxnyc79]

Here's the link. 

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-12-01/move-city-buy-riverfront-land-development-puzzles-officials

What a crock of shit.  Reading the quotes is like Trump's famous line about the complexity of healthcare. 

Literally these guys are blowing smoke up every ass at JEA.  I can see a lawsuit in the near future that shuts the whole thing down.

I have pretty much lost all respect for Lori Boyer at this point. She has become a total shill for Jax 'Old Money.'

"She (Boyer) said if the city is going to put money toward the project — for things like installing underground infrastructure necessary for development — then assuming ownership of the property would secure the city's investment."

HUH?  What the f$#k is she talking about?  She must have come up with this idea while the developers were buying her dinner at BB's.

LB: "Hey guys, thanks for lunch. How 'bout this. We'll buy the real estate and prep the site, you can develop it and make the money. Sound good?"

3 YEARS AFTER THE BID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come to think of it, I've always thought it odd that these RFPs don't get more bids from international developers.  I mean, I know it's Jax, but surely more than 3 people have an interest in Florida waterfront property for a dense mixed-use project.  Is downtown Jax waterfront really so repugnant, or is there a good ole boy network closing others out of the process.