Detroit's new streetcar line is now open for business

[Metro Jacksonville]

Detroit's new streetcar line is now open for business



Moderncities.com shares sights and scenes from the opening of Detroit's new streetcar system: The QLine

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2017-may-detroits-new-streetcar-line-is-now-open-for-business

[I-10east]

Pure Michigan: The QLine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF1o7HQGVVs

[TimmyB]

Pure Michigan: The QLine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF1o7HQGVVs

That is hilarious, but I can assure you of this: Downtown Detroit has their act together 100-fold over Downtown Jacksonville.  I mean, not even close.

[I-10east]

^^^Detroit as a whole also has a negative stigma 100 fold over Jacksonville as a whole as well. Their municipal government makes ours look sane (and that's saying alot). I'm sorry, but a few upstart hipster areas around DT Detroit doesn't make up for the square miles upon square miles of lost urbanity that's now lost to nature, as bears and other wildlife are now visiting the outskirts of Detroit.

If Jax had a streetcar, it would be alot like the QLine, basically an underachieving mess.   

[thelakelander]

LOL at the video. However, in reality the Q Line is privately funded and part of a strategy for infill TOD between DT and New Center. It's not meant to save Detroit or be a citywide rapid transit circulator. It's success will hinge on the amount of real estate development profits going into its financier's pockets. Brightline, another privately funded project, is similiar in that the real cash comes from TOD.

[thelakelander]

With that said, it is dumb to build rail to share lanes with cars.  If you're going to invest in it, give it its own lane.

[Ocklawaha]

In addition, economic impact reports claim that $7 billion in new investment has taken place on either side of the streetcar's route since 2013.

While time will tell which side is ultimately right, looking at the amount of infill development mushrooming along Woodward Avenue these days, it's hard to argue those claims.

If Detroit can attract $7B with a streetcar, Imagine what a Sunbelt Sprawler like JAX could attract with an Ultra-Light-Rail/Rapid Streetcar? If we only had a brain...

[marcuscnelson]

In addition, economic impact reports claim that $7 billion in new investment has taken place on either side of the streetcar's route since 2013.

While time will tell which side is ultimately right, looking at the amount of infill development mushrooming along Woodward Avenue these days, it's hard to argue those claims.

If Detroit can attract $7B with a streetcar, Imagine what a Sunbelt Sprawler like JAX could attract with an Ultra-Light-Rail/Rapid Streetcar? If we only had a brain...

Haven't there been plans for a First Coast Commuter Rail system? I'm not sure exactly why it wasn't built, but there were at least early plans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Coast_Commuter_Rail
https://www.jtafla.com/pdf/JTA%20-%20NE%20Florida%20Commuter%20Rail%20Feasibility%20Study%20-%20FINAL%20Report%20(July%202009).pdf

[Ocklawaha]

JTA, FDOT, CUTR (Center for Urban Transportation Research) and the NBRTI (National Bus Rapid Transit Institute) are not only in bed together, to some degree they are funded by the State of Florida. The later two are based at USF in Tampa and 'do the amazing research that we've become accustomed to.

Last week I read an 'expert paper' from them purporting to be a study of ultra-light streetcar running in parkways. The concept is both notable, workable and inexpensive, they couldn't find much of anything to argue with. To a rail guy, it was almost like reading comedy, in fact pathetic.

"All that's needed is a shallow trench filled with river rocks and the track is laid on top..." REALLY?  RIVER ROCK? River rock is smooth and roundish, step in a pile and it shoots out from under your boot... In other words unless you want track aligned like spaghetti, you ALWAYS USE CRUSHED ROCK.

"We couldn't find small Streetcars (gee, they could have called me)  so we used Chance Amusement Park Trains and found them trouble free..."  Um? TRAIN? STREETCAR? ELECTRIC? GAS? Anyone else notice a discrepancy?

Wonder where our commuter rail and Streetcar promises went? Wonder why they would consider a potentially high capacity monorail with 12 passenger/20 mph PODS that still don't offer door to door, first and last mile solutions they were designed for? Welcome to JTA!
They've never seen a rubber tire that they didn't love?! 'Just like rail only cheaper!'

[SightseerLounge]

JTA, FDOT, CUTR (Center for Urban Transportation Research) and the NBRTI (National Bus Rapid Transit Institute) are not only in bed together, to some degree they are funded by the State of Florida. The later two are based at USF in Tampa and 'do the amazing research that we've become accustomed to.

Last week I read an 'expert paper' from them purporting to be a study of ultra-light streetcar running in parkways. The concept is both notable, workable and inexpensive, they couldn't find much of anything to argue with. To a rail guy, it was almost like reading comedy, in fact pathetic.

"All that's needed is a shallow trench filled with river rocks and the track is laid on top..." REALLY?  RIVER ROCK? River rock is smooth and roundish, step in a pile and it shoots out from under your boot... In other words unless you want track aligned like spaghetti, you ALWAYS USE CRUSHED ROCK.

"We couldn't find small Streetcars (gee, they could have called me)  so we used Chance Amusement Park Trains and found them trouble free..."  Um? TRAIN? STREETCAR? ELECTRIC? GAS? Anyone else notice a discrepancy?

Wonder where our commuter rail and Streetcar promises went? Wonder why they would consider a potentially high capacity monorail with 12 passenger/20 mph PODS that still don't offer door to door, first and last mile solutions they were designed for? Welcome to JTA!
THEY'VE NEVER SEEN A RUBBER TIRE THAT THEY DIDN'T LOVE?! 'Just like rail only cheaper!'

THANK YOU. They are completely backwards! Why not just get new monorail vehicles? That is too much for JTA! NYC is about to spend $4 billion on new R211 cars. Now, Jax doesn't have that type of budget, but I'm sure they can get some new monorail vehicles! For a conservative town that prides itself on "not spending the taxpayer's dollars", they sure love wasting money on projects that they thought would be super cheap! If they were going to get rid of the monorail, upgrade to streetcar/trolley/light rail instead of downgrading to robot bus! Laughingstock of the country once again.

The monorail beam could be shaved to accommodate existing proven monorail technology. I believe the Las Vegas monorail beam is 4 inches shorter than Jax's Skyway. Problem solved! Extend the Skyway to the Stadium. Its already here, we might as well use it now. Build the elevated extensions so that the system can be converted into rail in the future. Simple things escape JAX.

THEY DON'T THINK LIKE THAT DOWN HERE!

[marcuscnelson]

From what I remember, when the whole Skyway upgrade issue came up three years ago, the options were out there to replace the vehicles and expand to Brooklyn and other places. The issue ended up being that the monorail system would cost something like tens of millions of dollars per mile. I thought that was why we choose the U2C.

What I'm not clear on is whether the U2C is supposed to be cheaper than that, or more expandable, or what else exactly. At this point, all I feel like I really know is that the Skyway as-is is outdated, and something needs to be done.

The questions that I guess need to be posed again is: what are the goals for the Skyway, what options do we have to accomplish those goals, and which of those options are the most effective for our type of city and at a reasonable budget?

[TimmyB]

From what I remember, when the whole Skyway upgrade issue came up three years ago, the options were out there to replace the vehicles and expand to Brooklyn and other places. The issue ended up being that the monorail system would cost something like tens of millions of dollars per mile. I thought that was why we choose the U2C.

What I'm not clear on is whether the U2C is supposed to be cheaper than that, or more expandable, or what else exactly. At this point, all I feel like I really know is that the Skyway as-is is outdated, and something needs to be done.

The questions that I guess need to be posed again is: what are the goals for the Skyway, what options do we have to accomplish those goals, and which of those options are the most effective for our type of city and at a reasonable budget?

I'm not 100% certain but I recall somewhere last year in this discussion that if the city were to abandon (or tear down) the Skyway, they would be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars in federal money that would have to be paid back, and that was their rationale for continuing on with this system, even though they can't find cars or parts to fix them, and that adding to it was cost-prohibitive.

[ProjectMaximus]

THANK YOU. They are completely backwards! Why not just get new monorail vehicles? That is too much for JTA! NYC is about to spend $4 billion on new R211 cars. Now, Jax doesn't have that type of budget, but I'm sure they can get some new monorail vehicles! For a conservative town that prides itself on "not spending the taxpayer's dollars", they sure love wasting money on projects that they thought would be super cheap! If they were going to get rid of the monorail, upgrade to streetcar/trolley/light rail instead of downgrading to robot bus! Laughingstock of the country once again.

The monorail beam could be shaved to accommodate existing proven monorail technology. I believe the Las Vegas monorail beam is 4 inches shorter than Jax's Skyway. Problem solved! Extend the Skyway to the Stadium. Its already here, we might as well use it now. Build the elevated extensions so that the system can be converted into rail in the future. Simple things escape JAX.

THEY DON'T THINK LIKE THAT DOWN HERE!

Like I told you in another thread when you asked this question, JTA's reasoning is that the technology is outdated and therefore exorbitantly expensive to continually replace and maintain as it doesn't exist anywhere else anymore. Whatever monorails are still in existence operate with updated technology, which means JTA would have to spend some hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade the system if it doesn't want to have the expense of operating its current vehicles.

Anyway, I can't verify the accuracy of that explanation, but that was their story.

[SightseerLounge]

As I said before, they don't think like that down here! They are going to have to spend money on mass transit at some point. It might as well be now. How many times is Jax going to avoid this by trying to take cheap shortcuts. The Original Skyway might have been a blessing in disguise. The federal government could have provided the huge seed needed to get mass transit rolling in Jax. Right when the Skyway is showing some signs of life, they decide to kill the thing for robot bus. An investment will have to be made at some point.

It can't just be more of the same. In 30 years, Jax will cry that they should have upgraded the monorail, or they should have tried light rail, or (probably the most obvious) they should have started some Commuter Rail. This is the Lyle Lanley-Simpson's treatment. More roads will be built. That is just the favoritism to roads and autos in the U. S. There should be balance.

They spent millions on video boards at Everbank Field. One would think that Jacksonville would invest millions into its own transportation system. They are worried about getting people downtown? Make it so people want to go there, and they have a way to get there.

I don't want to make it seem like I'm a crazy ranter on this internet, but it is annoying when simple things go above Jax's head. Common sense. I'll rant for a little while longer, and, then, I'll let time show if this U2C project is, yet, another Jacksonville failure.

[ProjectMaximus]

Your feeling is spot on, I think. What I've been trying to say is instead of continuing to suggest they should have bought new vehicles, it sounds like what you are really wanting is for them to upgrade the technology instead. And there's an argument to be made for that, although iirc most of our "expert" panel on these forums wanted a switch in technology to more of a streetcar, light rail system. Essentially doing what they are planning on doing now (rebuild the beams, switch technology, extend routes) except with higher efficiency streetcars instead of small autonomous pods. And of course separate ROW would be key too, but that could happen with either technology.