University of Florida Ranked #4 Best University Value by Forbes

[FlaBoy]

More than likely, we have to get UNF to think a bit more broadly.

If UNF got a fair shake from the Board of Governors, it would be significantly more competitive and a bigger asset than it already is to the community.

Performance based funding is largely what has held back UNF and the other smaller state universities since the metrics used are largely arbitrary. UNF takes a big hit in its "performance score" because it has many non-traditional (older) students that have to work while going to school and therefore can't graduate quickly. UNF also has many students that transfer prior to their junior year to the bigger schools because they want that "big college feel"--a sentiment I'll never understand having gone to UNF for undergrad and FSU for law school, I much preferred the smaller academic focused campus of UNF over the sprawling sports focused campuses with drunk frat guys and sorority girls strewn about of FSU, UF, and UCF, but I digress.

I think Jacksonville's economic success is largely tied to the strength of its universities (and colleges). Cleaning up and redeveloping Arlington will surely help JU, I wonder what the city could do to help UNF?

THIS. The metrics are arbitrary and detrimental. Another that always gets us is cost per undergraduate degree. Big schools milk this one by having huge student bodies, having huge class sizes, and having grad students and adjucts teach a lot of basic classes. Because UNF focuses on small class sizes and teacher interaction, the cost is higher and we get punished for one of our great strengths. Speaking personally, I got a much better education at UNF than I got at UF.

What the city could do for UNF is an interesting question. They've worked pretty well together in a lot of regards. On the city's end I'd say one thing that could be done would be helping to better integrate the campus into the surrounding area with redone roads and bike and pedestrian paths. It's strange how many roads around the UNF entrance don't have that.

UNF is 20:1 student faculty ratio. UF is 21:1. FSU is 25:1. UCF is 31:1. What were your programs at UF and UNF? One thing that is for sure, UCF and USF's larger populations have a much bigger and better impact for their cities than UNF. Likewise, it is a joke to think that there are more non-traditional students at UNF than UCF, USF, or FIU. All have traditionally been commuter schools.

[Tacachale]

More than likely, we have to get UNF to think a bit more broadly.

If UNF got a fair shake from the Board of Governors, it would be significantly more competitive and a bigger asset than it already is to the community.

Performance based funding is largely what has held back UNF and the other smaller state universities since the metrics used are largely arbitrary. UNF takes a big hit in its "performance score" because it has many non-traditional (older) students that have to work while going to school and therefore can't graduate quickly. UNF also has many students that transfer prior to their junior year to the bigger schools because they want that "big college feel"--a sentiment I'll never understand having gone to UNF for undergrad and FSU for law school, I much preferred the smaller academic focused campus of UNF over the sprawling sports focused campuses with drunk frat guys and sorority girls strewn about of FSU, UF, and UCF, but I digress.

I think Jacksonville's economic success is largely tied to the strength of its universities (and colleges). Cleaning up and redeveloping Arlington will surely help JU, I wonder what the city could do to help UNF?

THIS. The metrics are arbitrary and detrimental. Another that always gets us is cost per undergraduate degree. Big schools milk this one by having huge student bodies, having huge class sizes, and having grad students and adjucts teach a lot of basic classes. Because UNF focuses on small class sizes and teacher interaction, the cost is higher and we get punished for one of our great strengths. Speaking personally, I got a much better education at UNF than I got at UF.

What the city could do for UNF is an interesting question. They've worked pretty well together in a lot of regards. On the city's end I'd say one thing that could be done would be helping to better integrate the campus into the surrounding area with redone roads and bike and pedestrian paths. It's strange how many roads around the UNF entrance don't have that.

UNF is 20:1 student faculty ratio. UF is 21:1. FSU is 25:1. UCF is 31:1. What were your programs at UF and UNF? One thing that is for sure, UCF and USF's larger populations have a much bigger and better impact for their cities than UNF. Likewise, it is a joke to think that there are more non-traditional students at UNF than UCF, USF, or FIU. All have traditionally been commuter schools.

The difference with UNF is that by and large the faculty actually teach the classes, rather than doing research, teaching a few classes a year, lecturing at auditoriums/online rooms full of people, etc. UF also disguises its numbers by having a large number of grad students teaching classes. I'm not sure even the other big schools in Florida are as bad as they are with that.

I was an English major. That's not a subject you can teach well with classes of 40 or more being talked at by a professor (or especially a grad student). My experience at UF was that the faculty included a lot of the state's brightest minds in the discipline, but many if not most of them had little interest in teaching. The classes were characteristically large and impersonal, and very many were taught by grad students (many of whom were bright, but teaching was not their primary concern compared to their own studies). Electives outside the major were even worse. One well known economics prof would just film 1 lecture in the morning to be shown to all his other sections, then bounce. I once had a class with literally 1,000 students in it. In the UNF program, it was a totally different experience. Class sizes are much smaller and there's a much greater chance for discussion and interacting with the professors. The same was true with most electives I took outside the major. Even the auditorium classes and labs were smaller. There were downsides to a program in a smaller, less high profile school, but overall the quality of the education was vastly better.

It isn't like that in all majors and there are some students who are well suited for the big school environment. My sister, 2 cousins, and many of my friends thrived at UF and my brother is enjoying FSU. However, not all students or programs are good fits for that it, and when we don't offer all the options, the state suffers.

UCF and USF have a greater impact for their cities in some ways, but not in others. On the one hand, we need more college grads in Florida, so graduating more is beneficial. The schools also provide some key things that neither city would have otherwise. On the other hand, neither offers all that much you can't get, often better, somewhere else in the state. Their huge campus environments and insistence on having every single major means that they're mostly just an imitation of the prestige schools; they don't do anything different or better than UF and/or FSU. There's a saying: FSU wants to be UF, USF wants to be FSU, UCF wants to be USF, and FIU and FAU want to be UCF. We're effectively creating a bunch of copies of a big, football-having school with little sense of how to distinguish them. It's the "big box" education model.

[RattlerGator]

FlaBoy, I've only now noticed that you previously referenced UF Coral Gables before I did. I guess I was racing through the comments and overlooked that.

There's a saying: FSU wants to be UF, USF wants to be FSU, UCF wants to be USF, and FIU and FAU want to be UCF. We're effectively creating a bunch of copies of a big, football-having school with little sense of how to distinguish them. It's the "big box" education model.

IMHO, that's the old-school way of looking at it. It has surprised many, but UCF has received *tremendous* juice from their rush to 60K students. Forbes has them as #177 best value, USF at #243; both schools have to varying degrees made their campus environment much more residential. That's remarkable to me; USF, with their medical school, has a much bigger research enterprise.

[Tacachale]

There's a saying: FSU wants to be UF, USF wants to be FSU, UCF wants to be USF, and FIU and FAU want to be UCF. We're effectively creating a bunch of copies of a big, football-having school with little sense of how to distinguish them. It's the "big box" education model.

IMHO, that's the old-school way of looking at it. It has surprised many, but UCF has received *tremendous* juice from their rush to 60K students. Forbes has them as #177 best value, USF at #243; both schools have to varying degrees made their campus environment much more residential. That's remarkable to me; USF, with their medical school, has a much bigger research enterprise.

The big box model is fine if you want a university system that's nothing but big boxes. However, not all students want that. Good university systems (like North Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, and California) offer a variety to meet the needs of different students, regions, and workforces. Florida does a sub-par job with that, and the metrics encourage schools to just increase enrollment and class sizes.

[RattlerGator]

I think the Florida university system is clearly better, and has greater size diversity, that you seem to comprehend Tacachale.

Polytechnic, Gulf Coast, UWF, and UNF are one-third of the system.

And four schools among the top 250 Values in the nation? That beats North Carolina and Michigan.

[Tacachale]

I think the Florida university system is clearly better, and has greater size diversity, that you seem to comprehend Tacachale.

Polytechnic, Gulf Coast, UWF, and UNF are one-third of the system.

And four schools among the top 250 Values in the nation? That beats North Carolina and Michigan.

And another quarter of the system are in the top 5 largest universities in the entire country, with several others at their heels.

Florida having 4 of 250 schools isn't especially impressive considering that we're the 3rd biggest state. The SUNY system has 8 on the same list and California has 20 or more. We're on pace with Texas, another state that has some great universities, but not a great system. And this is leaving aside the problems with lists like this.

No one in higher ed in Florida will argue that we have a great system. We have some great universities and many great programs, but there's very little coordination and a lot of parochialism. The central organization is weak and has little say in what individual schools do. This can be good in some ways, but it's not good when they so many of them choose to just copy each other, duplicate their programs, and fight for themselves rather than what's best for the state.