ATL streetcar ridership plumments

[I-10east]

^^^I do agree that many of these rail projects seemed rushed. Makes you wonder how many backdoor deals are being made behind the scenes.

I wouldn't apply it only to rail, although most (at least anything relying on federal funding) do take years to come to fruition.  There's a ton of successful projects out there as well. LRT in Houston and Dallas and BRT in Cleveland are three good examples of rail and bus projects.  I'd also argue that JTA's modification of their existing bus system, a few years back, is an example of a successful transit project. Nevertheless, no matter the project, at the end of the day some common sense and logic, concerning the connection between transit and supportive land use must be applied.

Right on. 

[jaxjags]

Depends on the mode. If commuter rail, probably DT to Clay County but operating it as a hybrid system with more stops and frequent service, similar to the Sprinter in Oceanside (San Diego). If LRT, DT to Southpoint/Town Center as a starter. Given the length, both could be cost prohibitive. If Skyway extension, then Kings Ave to San Marco or the O&M/JRTC area to Five Points via Brooklyn. If strretcar, DT to Five Points/King St. BRT with dedicated lanes is a little more complicated. Ten years ago, I would have said the Arlington Expressway corridor but  Regency is dying now.  Other interesting corridors would be Main, Kings Rd, etc. The con is our context. We don't have a setting with a ton of existing destinations on a single inner city corridor like Euclid in Cleveland. So your line will end up taking some crazy circuitous route.

Ok given that and your approach how about:

Skyway extension to Brooklyn feeding to streetcar from there to King Street/Riverside

Skyway extension to San Marco  feeding  the commuter rail to OP

LRT  to SJTC is probably too expensive for today. Instead what mode could feed a line from the commuter rail at JTB/Phillips to the SJTC/UNF. Approximately 6 miles - LRT?

Takes approach that all modes connect with Skyway to make it truly a usable system DT.

Since we have a regional transportation center under construction, all of the modes should connect there.  Sort of like a Union Station or Terminal.

Understand. That thought came to me after post. Looking at a map, will it be difficult getting the rail and streetcar lines to the hub. Any suggested routes or ideas?

[thelakelander]

^The JRTC is at the old rail terminal. The rail lines are already there.  If streetcar came on line, it would be easy to get into the old terminal as well.  When the original streetcar system was around, the line to the terminal ran in the middle of West Bay Street.

[tufsu1]

^^ Glad someone else is old enough to appreciate and remember the best damn 90's movie ever.

Oh my. The best 90s movie? Really?

Definitely a top 90's choice for me.  Maybe I'm biased, since the lead character was a transportation planner - and I saw future me in him.  That, and I went to Seattle for the first time in 1993

and yes, Reality Bites is pretty damn good too.

[Adam White]

^^ Glad someone else is old enough to appreciate and remember the best damn 90's movie ever.

Oh my. The best 90s movie? Really?

Definitely a top 90's choice for me.  Maybe I'm biased, since the lead character was a transportation planner - and I saw future me in him.  That, and I went to Seattle for the first time in 1993

and yes, Reality Bites is pretty damn good too.

I guess that's why Shakes the Clown made such an impression on me. Bobcat Goldthwait plays an alcoholic birthday party clown - I suppose I could see my future self in that character. Plus, it helps that it was released the year I started Klown Kollege.

Re: Atlanta or streetcars in general - I think it's always a bad idea to build projects like this in isolation. Unless it's part of a wider strategy, it's likely to die on the vine. Also, people need to understand this is a long-term investment that may not break even for years (if ever). Stuff doesn't happen overnight - you can't expect thousands of riders and lots of development to just materialize out of thin air.

[RattlerGator]

And you don't put the cart before the horse -- something y'all can't quite seem to figure out.

You service a need in transportation, and you do that by providing something needed by the consumer. You absolutely don't do that by preaching at people regarding what they SHOULD need and desire.

Americans, quite rightly, tell you to go straight to hell when you do that.

[Adam White]

And you don't put the cart before the horse -- something y'all can't quite seem to figure out.

You service a need in transportation, and you do that by providing something needed by the consumer. You absolutely don't do that by preaching at people regarding what they SHOULD need and desire.

Americans, quite rightly, tell you to go straight to hell when you do that.

I agree - in part. I think you need to plan and you need to anticipate demands or needs. That's why transit projects need to be part of an overall strategy. You can't always build rail after the fact. Or it's likely to be more expensive and a bigger hassle, I would think.

But you are right in that people will need an incentive to use the service. And when I am thinking incentive, I am thinking of it being cheaper or easier to use than driving. Put the pieces in place, let it develop and eventually people will use it. But if you just build a streetcar or rail line that runs from nowhere to nowhere, don't expect results.

[Coolyfett]

Gotta go somewhere that can actually generate ridership. Must also be fed riders from other modes to increase usage. Doesn't matter whether its streetcar, BRT, LRT, peoplemover, AV or heavy rail.  Sad to see many transit agencies making these same mistakes over and over again. Especially with starter lines.  At the end of the day, even your short starter needs to go somewhere. Houston nailed it with their LRT connection with downtown and TMC as the bookends.  More places should follow suit (if their context is right).

I have used it many times. It actually goes to many of the tourist place downtown. One of the stops it right next to Peachtree Marta Station. I dont know how many stops it has though as I have many used the same 4 stops on that line. The Auburn area may just need more events. Event time is when it sees the most use.

[thelakelander]

^That's part of the problem with some of the newer systems. They're nothing more than tourist trains. Unfortunately, the infrastructure cost too much to only have them serve a limited segment of the potential mass transit demographic.  The more successful new systems utilize routes and operate in a manner where they can get the tourist, the commuters, the transit dependent and the special event attendees.

[Kerry]

The thing that doomed the ATL streetcar is their decision to use a couplet model instead of bi-directional travel.  Oklahoma City is laying their streetcar track now and they also went with the couplet model and made a few other bone-headed decisions out of stubbornness instead of adjusting their plans as development realities materialized.  I hear it all the time, "This is how Portland did it.", but how Portland does it doesn't mean their model is plug and play in every city, or any other city for that matter.  US cities would do well to look at French cities as a model instead of Portland.

[TimmyB]

The thing that doomed the ATL streetcar is their decision to use a couplet model instead of bi-directional travel.  Oklahoma City is laying their streetcar track now and they also went with the couplet model and made a few other bone-headed decisions out of stubbornness instead of adjusting their plans as development realities materialized.  I hear it all the time, "This is how Portland did it.", but how Portland does it doesn't mean their model is plug and play in every city, or any other city for that matter.  US cities would do well to look at French cities as a model instead of Portland.

Problem with that, Kerry, is the typical "American" attitude about anything European.  Take traffic circles, for example.  I love them.  There are intersections where we used to wait up to four cycles of lights just to get through them and now, we're through them in under a minute, because the traffic can keep moving.  When you listen to those bitching about them, they invariably seem to bring up the argument that "it's not the way we do things here".  Total hogwash, but if anyone says "This is what they're doing with streetcars in Toulouse", their point will be DOA.  Sad.

[Kerry]

The thing that doomed the ATL streetcar is their decision to use a couplet model instead of bi-directional travel.  Oklahoma City is laying their streetcar track now and they also went with the couplet model and made a few other bone-headed decisions out of stubbornness instead of adjusting their plans as development realities materialized.  I hear it all the time, "This is how Portland did it.", but how Portland does it doesn't mean their model is plug and play in every city, or any other city for that matter.  US cities would do well to look at French cities as a model instead of Portland.

Problem with that, Kerry, is the typical "American" attitude about anything European.  Take traffic circles, for example.  I love them.  There are intersections where we used to wait up to four cycles of lights just to get through them and now, we're through them in under a minute, because the traffic can keep moving.  When you listen to those bitching about them, they invariably seem to bring up the argument that "it's not the way we do things here".  Total hogwash, but if anyone says "This is what they're doing with streetcars in Toulouse", their point will be DOA.  Sad.

Agree!  I am ashamed to admit but I was once one of those people.  Then I grew up to be an adult.

I still maintain that the Portland streetcar, while great for Portland, has been a setback for the rest of the street-car developing world because transit planners (especially know-nothing citizen based steering committees) are trying to emulate it to the letter.