Dow down 600 points...think its gonna get worse...

[apvbguy]

From what little I've read of the bill, the profits would go into the general fund of the federal gov't.  I have also seen some articles that show 20% of something going to groups such as ACORN, which seems like a blatant earmark.  No wonder why the bill went from 3 pages to 44 pages to 110 pages.

you are correct in your analysis, many of the obnoxious provisions like the ACORN earmarks were stripped out of the bill, but many bad things were left in and while the media won't tell you about the nuts and bolts of the bill if people look hard like you have the good, bad and ugly is out there. The dems padded a lot of pork and precedents that were really bad and that is a part of why the bill went down. the real crime is that the republicans were playing ball with the dems and when the fix fell apart everyone was blaming everyone else when all they needed to do was look in the mirror to see why the bill failed.
This bill highlights how congress, both sides, have failed all of us, both sides are reprehensible and the people are right about demanding change, unfortunately the change offered by BHO is way too radical and the change offered by McCain isn't enough, we really are in a pickle

[apvbguy]

Do you guys read the same websites or something??

this is just ridiculous.  Ive seriously never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.
[/quote]

it called reading and understanding the real facts not posting emotional and comments based on ignorance. Think of this like being interrogated, if you're telling the truth the story is always the same, if it is not quite true you need to very careful to keep your BS in order. You are fairly good at it but those who do know fact from fiction can pick you apart every time

[Driven1]

oh yeah  - and in the meantime, while things are "loosening up" magically, what do you think will happen to the economy?

Well what did you guys think was going to happen when the warning signs were going off for everyone else 15 months ago?The time to fix it was then, Driven, not now that its too late.
But as I recall, none of this was real or important and just a partisan attack based on Bush Derangement Syndrome.Too late is too late.What is the point of dragging the process out significantly longer?The end result of all this 'bailout' nonsense is complete vassalage to the Chinese.

Stephen, perhaps you can hop in your time machine and wrangle with the problem back 5 years ago (or whenever), when it was just a wee-little problem.  As for the rest of us, we are stuck here in the present dealing with a major financial crisis.  It is my hunch though that time machines and positive thoughts will get us nowhere in the present day.

[Midway ®]

Do you guys read the same websites or something??

this is just ridiculous.  Ive seriously never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.

it called reading and understanding the real facts not posting emotional and comments based on ignorance. Think of this like being interrogated, if you're telling the truth the story is always the same, if it is not quite true you need to very careful to keep your BS in order. You are fairly good at it but those who do know fact from fiction can pick you apart every time

But, if you listen to rush, he fills your head with a nice believable storyline suitable for posting online.

And since rush is your life and hero, you remember all the fine details exquisitely.

I wonder, where RG is? probably busy covering margin calls.

We could use "the voice of reason and calm^tm"  to hepl heal the economy. His pronouncements of the basic soundness of the economy were so compelling.

[Midway ®]

oh yeah  - and in the meantime, while things are "loosening up" magically, what do you think will happen to the economy?

Well what did you guys think was going to happen when the warning signs were going off for everyone else 15 months ago?The time to fix it was then, Driven, not now that its too late.
But as I recall, none of this was real or important and just a partisan attack based on Bush Derangement Syndrome.Too late is too late.What is the point of dragging the process out significantly longer?The end result of all this 'bailout' nonsense is complete vassalage to the Chinese.

Stephen, perhaps you can hop in your time machine and wrangle with the problem back 5 years ago (or whenever), when it was just a wee-little problem.  As for the rest of us, we are stuck here in the present dealing with a major financial crisis.  It is my hunch though that time machines and positive thoughts will get us nowhere in the present day.

Interesting; you have gone from manic to circumspect in just 7 days and 1000 points.

[apvbguy]

hmm.  perhaps you should practice remaining calm enough to actually use the quote command correctly.

thanks for the advice, do you have ANYTHING to add to the topic at hand?

The post and line of reasoning remains hogwash.

please try to keep your posts on a more civil level, if you cannot point out the specific parts that are hog wash then this is just an uncivil, unsubstantiated ad hominem attack

[apvbguy]

Do you guys read the same websites or something??

this is just ridiculous.  Ive seriously never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.

it called reading and understanding the real facts not posting emotional and comments based on ignorance. Think of this like being interrogated, if you're telling the truth the story is always the same, if it is not quite true you need to very careful to keep your BS in order. You are fairly good at it but those who do know fact from fiction can pick you apart every time

But, if you listen to rush, he fills your head with a nice believable storyline suitable for posting online.

And since rush is your life and hero, you remember all the fine details exquisitely.

I wonder, where RG is? probably busy covering margin calls.

We could use "the voice of reason and calm^tm"  to hepl heal the economy. His pronouncements of the basic soundness of the economy were so compelling.

[/quote]

if that's what you think so be it, I haven't listened to rush or any other radio pundit in many many years. their listeners and the people who call in are even lower down the chain than many found here, in fact I wouldn't even know where in JAX he could be heard. I rarely listen to terrestial radio

[whitey]

From what little I've read of the bill, the profits would go into the general fund of the federal gov't.  I have also seen some articles that show 20% of something going to groups such as ACORN, which seems like a blatant earmark.  No wonder why the bill went from 3 pages to 44 pages to 110 pages.

you are correct in your analysis, many of the obnoxious provisions like the ACORN earmarks were stripped out of the bill, but many bad things were left in and while the media won't tell you about the nuts and bolts of the bill if people look hard like you have the good, bad and ugly is out there. The dems padded a lot of pork and precedents that were really bad and that is a part of why the bill went down. the real crime is that the republicans were playing ball with the dems and when the fix fell apart everyone was blaming everyone else when all they needed to do was look in the mirror to see why the bill failed.
This bill highlights how congress, both sides, have failed all of us, both sides are reprehensible and the people are right about demanding change, unfortunately the change offered by BHO is way too radical and the change offered by McCain isn't enough, we really are in a pickle

Do you guys read the same websites or something??

this is just ridiculous.  Ive seriously never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.

Here is the part of the bill in question

    TRANSFER OF A PERCENTAGE OF PROFITS.

       1. DEPOSITS.Not less than 20 percent of any profit realized on the sale of each troubled asset purchased under this Act shall be deposited as provided in paragraph (2).
       2. USE OF DEPOSITS.Of the amount referred to in paragraph (1)
             1. 65 percent shall be deposited into the Housing Trust Fund established under section 1338 of the Federal Housing Enterprises Regulatory Reform Act of 1992 (12 U.S.C. 4568); and
             2. 35 percent shall be deposited into the Capital Magnet Fund established under section 1339 of that Act (12 U.S.C. 4569).

    REMAINDER DEPOSITED IN THE TREASURY.All amounts remaining after payments under paragraph (1) shall be paid into the General Fund of the Treasury for reduction of the public debt.

And here is the link that it came from
http://publicmarkup.org/bill/dodds-legislative-proposal-treasury-department-aut/1/5/

[apvbguy]

From what little I've read of the bill, the profits would go into the general fund of the federal gov't.  I have also seen some articles that show 20% of something going to groups such as ACORN, which seems like a blatant earmark.  No wonder why the bill went from 3 pages to 44 pages to 110 pages.

you are correct in your analysis, many of the obnoxious provisions like the ACORN earmarks were stripped out of the bill, but many bad things were left in and while the media won't tell you about the nuts and bolts of the bill if people look hard like you have the good, bad and ugly is out there. The dems padded a lot of pork and precedents that were really bad and that is a part of why the bill went down. the real crime is that the republicans were playing ball with the dems and when the fix fell apart everyone was blaming everyone else when all they needed to do was look in the mirror to see why the bill failed.
This bill highlights how congress, both sides, have failed all of us, both sides are reprehensible and the people are right about demanding change, unfortunately the change offered by BHO is way too radical and the change offered by McCain isn't enough, we really are in a pickle

Do you guys read the same websites or something??

this is just ridiculous.  Ive seriously never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.

Here is the part of the bill in question

    TRANSFER OF A PERCENTAGE OF PROFITS.

       1. DEPOSITS.Not less than 20 percent of any profit realized on the sale of each troubled asset purchased under this Act shall be deposited as provided in paragraph (2).
       2. USE OF DEPOSITS.Of the amount referred to in paragraph (1)
             1. 65 percent shall be deposited into the Housing Trust Fund established under section 1338 of the Federal Housing Enterprises Regulatory Reform Act of 1992 (12 U.S.C. 4568); and
             2. 35 percent shall be deposited into the Capital Magnet Fund established under section 1339 of that Act (12 U.S.C. 4569).

    REMAINDER DEPOSITED IN THE TREASURY.All amounts remaining after payments under paragraph (1) shall be paid into the General Fund of the Treasury for reduction of the public debt.

And here is the link that it came from
http://publicmarkup.org/bill/dodds-legislative-proposal-treasury-department-aut/1/5/

ut-oh now you've done it!
he'll be mumbling for days, real facts? this isn't on the daily kos site, how can I deal with real facts?

[Ocklawaha]

The Mayan calender says 2012, so did Edgar Cayce, Mother Jones, and Nostradamus. What say you Stephendare? Do we all jump yet?

OCKLAWAHA

[whitey]

From what little I've read of the bill, the profits would go into the general fund of the federal gov't.  I have also seen some articles that show 20% of something going to groups such as ACORN, which seems like a blatant earmark.  No wonder why the bill went from 3 pages to 44 pages to 110 pages.

you are correct in your analysis, many of the obnoxious provisions like the ACORN earmarks were stripped out of the bill, but many bad things were left in and while the media won't tell you about the nuts and bolts of the bill if people look hard like you have the good, bad and ugly is out there. The dems padded a lot of pork and precedents that were really bad and that is a part of why the bill went down. the real crime is that the republicans were playing ball with the dems and when the fix fell apart everyone was blaming everyone else when all they needed to do was look in the mirror to see why the bill failed.
This bill highlights how congress, both sides, have failed all of us, both sides are reprehensible and the people are right about demanding change, unfortunately the change offered by BHO is way too radical and the change offered by McCain isn't enough, we really are in a pickle

Do you guys read the same websites or something??

this is just ridiculous.  Ive seriously never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.

Here is the part of the bill in question

    TRANSFER OF A PERCENTAGE OF PROFITS.

       1. DEPOSITS.Not less than 20 percent of any profit realized on the sale of each troubled asset purchased under this Act shall be deposited as provided in paragraph (2).
       2. USE OF DEPOSITS.Of the amount referred to in paragraph (1)
             1. 65 percent shall be deposited into the Housing Trust Fund established under section 1338 of the Federal Housing Enterprises Regulatory Reform Act of 1992 (12 U.S.C. 4568); and
             2. 35 percent shall be deposited into the Capital Magnet Fund established under section 1339 of that Act (12 U.S.C. 4569).

    REMAINDER DEPOSITED IN THE TREASURY.All amounts remaining after payments under paragraph (1) shall be paid into the General Fund of the Treasury for reduction of the public debt.

And here is the link that it came from
http://publicmarkup.org/bill/dodds-legislative-proposal-treasury-department-aut/1/5/

ut-oh now you've done it!
he'll be mumbling for days, real facts? this isn't on the daily kos site, how can I deal with real facts?

hey smart guy.

so where did they mention ACORN?

Google "Housing Trust Fund ACORN" and you will see that the fund is nothing more than a slush fund which ACORN gladly partakes in.

This whole issue may be for not, since there is some question as to whether or not this made it into the final bill.  But with 110 pages to look though, I am sure there are plenty other BS earmarks to be found.

And the fact that they would have funneled any potential profits (not likely but lets be positive) away from the taxpayers of record is infuriating.  I am against even putting any profits into the general fund, if there are profits then a check should be cut to anyone who actually paid federal income taxes during the period that the $700 billion was used.  It was their money at risk and it should be repaid to them.

[Driven1]

i've said it once and i'll say it again.  the bill needs to pass.  screw stupid politics.  we are talking about middle-class joe and jane here (i thought this was the bread and butter constituent for dems???) who will not be able to get a car loan when the 2001 Honda Odyssey finally goes kaput.  they won't be able to get the loan (even with good credit) b/c the banks have no more $$.  so they can no longer get to work.  they have to take a lower paying job that is walking/biking distance to work. they spend less.  their family eats out less.  they take less vacations.  and this isn't just temporary...this is the new them.

multiply them times millions.  that's the new america if there are no credit depositories for americans to draw upon.  it's not a Tory issue and its not a Whig issue...it's a very potential stark reality.

[whitey]

Driven I disagree somewhat.  Something needs to be done, but the final incarnation of this bill was utter crap.

What could be done instead is revoke the mark to market rules for these securities, which would instantly take pressure off of the banks.  Banks would be able to value these assets at book value rather than current market value.  The current market values are way down because of all of the uncertainty, but their book values are much higher.  This instantly increases the banks credit ratings, alleviating the pressure on them from the ratings agencies.  The ratings agencies have been lowering banks credit ratings, when this happens banks need to raise more capital because the cost of borrowing is higher, so they have been dumping the assets in question.  It has become an endless cycle.  Nobody wants to buy these securities because every day more and more become available at cheaper prices, so the buyers are just idling sitting buy.

In addition to this, perhaps they should trade these securities on the open market like stocks, bonds or options.  That would increase the buying pool and thereby increase the liquidity for these securities.

These two options would costs exactly $0.00  They may or may not help the situation, just like the bill that was voted down today.

Either way, every person up for re-election should be tossed out next month.  The federal government is a joke.

[Driven1]

revoking mark to market is a bad idea.  mark to market was institituted when we witnessed Japan go through a decade-long recession because the financials there refused to mark assets to true market value.  yeah, it would instantly make the banks' ratings better, but it would be an illusion - not a true picture of reality.  as painful as mark to market is, it is needed and the best policy.  what is needed to combat the pain is liquidity so that the Regular Joe will be able to buy a car.  consumer spending is 72% of GDP.  you allow a massive barrier to that arise and you have halted the economy. 

[Driven1]

btw...saw on CNBC tonight...

the partisan politicians (on both sides) who didn't want us to bail out to the tune of $700 billion, cost us $1.4 TRILLION (double) in stock market value...8% of today's starting US market value.

thanks "servant leaders".