A Tale of Two Parks

[Ocklawaha]

One big thing the city needs to do is make a partnership between law enforcement and social services, the cops need to sweep the streets of these people who have problems and instead of just moving them on they need to be pointed in the direction of the social services that can address the roots of their problems be it drug addiction or mental illness.

Ah yes the old proverb tis true:

"First they came for the homeless and the unemployed, and I did nothing, because I was not homeless or unemployed.

Next they came for the dirty, those that didn't bathe, and I did nothing, because I was not dirty, and I bathe.

Then they came for the smokers and drug addicts, and I did nothing, because I was not a drug addict or a smoker.

One day they came for the prostitutes, pimps and politically incorrect, and I did nothing because I was not a prostitute, pimp or politically incorrect.

Then they came for the extremist, liberals and ultra Conservatives, and I did nothing, because I was not an extremist, liberal or ultra Conservative.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything..."

YEP ROUND EM UP Y'ALL, get out the cattle cars and the razor wire. Arbeit Macht Frei.

OCKLAWAHA

[RiversideGator]

And thus the reducto ad hitlerum rears its ugly head.   

[triclops i]

Ten things that would make this crappy park better and cost under $1000:

1. Playground
2. Bocce Ball
3. Croquet
4, Vollyball
5. Soccer
6. A reggae band on Sunday afternoon
7. A band on Friday night
8. A keg party with a dj any day of the week
9. an outdoor artists market one weekend...

and finally...

10. Get the bike cops to run off the bums that try to live there all day.

If anyone can get permission from the city, I would promote and produce 6-10 for free. No problem.
Well we have to pay the entertainment, but I will do the organizational work for tips.!!!

Its really easy. The park sucks because its under used by everyone except bums.

Ian

[RiversideGator]

BTW, I think Jacksonville has a LONG way to go in the designs of its parks but this is really comparing apples to oranges.  Campus Martius appears much larger than the Main Street Park and it is surrounded by sympathetic development.  The Main Street park has none of these virtues, which is why is should never have been sited there.  CM should really be compared with Hemming Park (which could also use some improvement).  Anyway, I am still hopeful that a future administration will RFP the Main Street site to a residential developer.

Also, I forgot who said it but you can be a conservative and favor urban development.  These ideas are not mutually exclusive and by casting it in such a political light you are alienating many people who would otherwise support your ideas.

[thelakelander]

Putting all of the rest of the comments aside.. This article just misses completely Lakelander.... You are comparing one of detroits best downtown parks to jacksonville's worst.


Anyhow this piece needs revision as you stated.

The comparison was never made because the article was never started.  However, these parks have more in common, then you want to give them credit for.  Both are roughly the same size, built during the same era and centrally located in the heart of their downtowns.  The difference is one was built with a mindset of attracting a diverse amount of users around the clock and the other wasn't.  That comparison, no matter which way it is spinned, is hard to rip apart.

[thelakelander]

on a not-so-related note, how is Detroit doing?

Downtown....better than ours.

The rest of the city....worse than ours.

[thelakelander]

BTW, I think Jacksonville has a LONG way to go in the designs of its parks but this is really comparing apples to oranges.  Campus Martius appears much larger than the Main Street Park and it is surrounded by sympathetic development.  The Main Street park has none of these virtues, which is why is should never have been sited there.

This is what makes it a valid comparison.  Having complementing surrounding uses integrated with a park is just as important as what goes in the park itself.  Its an open and shut case to why one fails and one succeeds.  One was doomed from the start.

CM should really be compared with Hemming Park (which could also use some improvement).  Anyway, I am still hopeful that a future administration will RFP the Main Street site to a residential developer.

They can all be compared with one another.  Even the design of Klutho Park or the riverwalk can be compared as well.  If urban parks can't attract users on a continuous basis, they fail, point blank, no excuses.  If they incorporate things that attract people, they succeed regardless of size and the amount of money thrown into them.

Also, I forgot who said it but you can be a conservative and favor urban development.  These ideas are not mutually exclusive and by casting it in such a political light you are alienating many people who would otherwise support your ideas.

This is not my argument.  I'm conservative when it comes to my money and tax dollars.  I don't mind paying for things, but they should at least make sense and enhance the community for the funds spent.  I don't think this spot, in its current configuration does either.

[thelakelander]

Ten things that would make this crappy park better and cost under $1000:

1. Playground
2. Bocce Ball
3. Croquet
4, Vollyball
5. Soccer
6. A reggae band on Sunday afternoon
7. A band on Friday night
8. A keg party with a dj any day of the week
9. an outdoor artists market one weekend...

and finally...

10. Get the bike cops to run off the bums that try to live there all day.

If anyone can get permission from the city, I would promote and produce 6-10 for free. No problem.
Well we have to pay the entertainment, but I will do the organizational work for tips.!!!

Its really easy. The park sucks because its under used by everyone except bums.

Ian

Beautiful.  Triclops i has a pretty good head on his shoulders.  Creating interesting spots that attract people is not always about spending tons of cash, bringing in palm trees and replica historic light posts.  This is the exact type of problem solving this community needs.

[apvbguy]

One big thing the city needs to do is make a partnership between law enforcement and social services, the cops need to sweep the streets of these people who have problems and instead of just moving them on they need to be pointed in the direction of the social services that can address the roots of their problems be it drug addiction or mental illness.

Ah yes the old proverb tis true:

"First they came for the homeless and the unemployed, and I did nothing, because I was not homeless or unemployed.

Next they came for the dirty, those that didn't bathe, and I did nothing, because I was not dirty, and I bathe.

Then they came for the smokers and drug addicts, and I did nothing, because I was not a drug addict or a smoker.

One day they came for the prostitutes, pimps and politically incorrect, and I did nothing because I was not a prostitute, pimp or politically incorrect.

Then they came for the extremist, liberals and ultra Conservatives, and I did nothing, because I was not an extremist, liberal or ultra Conservative.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything..."

YEP ROUND EM UP Y'ALL, get out the cattle cars and the razor wire. Arbeit Macht Frei.

OCKLAWAHA

oh my shall we invoke godwin's?
please next time try to comprehend what was written and hold back on the histrionics.
I think that most of us will agree that the majority of the homeless are in that position because of other problems like addictions or mental illnesses that hinder their ability to provide for themselves. All I suggested was that the city in partnership with law enforcement providing the outreach get these people connected to social services that might be able to help them. please don't let your altruistic chest thumping distract you from the goal we all seek, help for the homeless and a cleaner downtown that is more attractive to people to come to.

[RiversideGator]

This is what makes it a valid comparison.  Having complementing surrounding uses integrated with a park is just as important as what goes in the park itself.  Its an open and shut case to why one fails and one succeeds.  One was doomed from the start.

I agree with you that it was doomed from the start and needs complimentary uses.  We all stated before this was built that it was a bad move and we were right.

CM should really be compared with Hemming Park (which could also use some improvement).  Anyway, I am still hopeful that a future administration will RFP the Main Street site to a residential developer.

They can all be compared with one another.  Even the design of Klutho Park or the riverwalk can be compared as well.  If urban parks can't attract users on a continuous basis, they fail, point blank, no excuses.  If they incorporate things that attract people, they succeed regardless of size and the amount of money thrown into them.

Agreed.

Also, I forgot who said it but you can be a conservative and favor urban development.  These ideas are not mutually exclusive and by casting it in such a political light you are alienating many people who would otherwise support your ideas.

This is not my argument.  I'm conservative when it comes to my money and tax dollars.  I don't mind paying for things, but they should at least make sense and enhance the community for the funds spent.  I don't think this spot, in its current configuration does either.

I didnt mean to imply that this was your argument.  I didnt recall who had posted it and was being lazy about going back and finding the original poster.  I also agree with your point here. 

I guess what I was trying to say was that CM has much more potential because of where it was sited than the Main Street park ever did.  Forget about what was put into the park, I was referring to the potential synergy with the surrounding areas.  The CM park has multiple population centers surrounding it.  The Main Street park has none (unless you count the Salvation Army bum magnet).

[RiversideGator]

apvbguy.  please stop with the name calling.  it is against our rules of civility.  You can make your point without trying to detract from others.

Did he call someone a name in this thread?   

[thelakelander]

I didnt mean to imply that this was your argument.  I didnt recall who had posted it and was being lazy about going back and finding the original poster.  I also agree with your point here. 

I guess what I was trying to say was that CM has much more potential because of where it was sited than the Main Street park ever did.  Forget about what was put into the park, I was referring to the potential synergy with the surrounding areas.  The CM park has multiple population centers surrounding it.  The Main Street park has none (unless you count the Salvation Army bum magnet).

Yes, but it was all a part of a plan that happened to be larger than the park itself.  Most of what surrounds the park today, came after the park's plans were announced or construction had begun.  Its been fascinating to see how an area can turn around so quickly, if properly planned and carried out.  When comparing the two, the fact that one was situated in a location that would be central to future projects opening up into the space is a critical point. 

It goes back to the notion that figuring out how the surrounding spaces work/integrate with a park is just as important as the park's layout.  Despite being warned the city missed big time on this point.  Now we have to figure out how to salvage what's there.  For this to be done, we have to focus on making the park an attraction itself.

[Springfield Girl]

This city has a love/hate relationship with the homeless. Most people who defend their (homeless) presence and behavior wouldn't be caught dead anywhere near them. This issue must be addressed in a different way than it is being addressed now. I don't know anyone who is comfortable in a park or anywhere where there is a concentration of these people and no Downtown can thrive when it is overrun with non tax paying, social service agencies. I am used to living in urban areas and am not afraid of the street people but it's not enjoyable to be approached by strangers and hit up for money continuously. I definitely think there is room for improvement with our urban parks but until we find some kind of solution for the homeless situation I don't know how much difference the improvements would make.

[Charles Hunter]

Was the warning because of the reference to reductio ad hitlerum?
That was just the fancy way of referring to Godwin's Law, he wasn't calling Ock "hitler":

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2][3]

    "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the reductio ad Hitlerum form.

The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

The rest of the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

And to, thelakelander - when will the full article be posted?  Are saying, a couple posts back, that the park preceded some of those big office building?  Or just that the park preceded some of the street level retail/restaurant uses?

[thelakelander]

And to, thelakelander - when will the full article be posted?

I'm just getting back in to town.  I'll try and post the full article before the end of the day.

Are saying, a couple posts back, that the park preceded some of those big office building?  Or just that the park preceded some of the street level retail/restaurant uses?

The planning and construction of the park preceded two large office buildings, the adaptive reuse of another, a second linear park and a large parking garage with street level retail.