Where Does the Skyway Go From Here?

[Coolyfett]

a single line from the convention center to the stadium would not be very effective in getting jaguar fans downtown to the stadium.  Investing that kind of money for 10 weekends doesn't seem that smart.  If you've watched the shuttle service at the convention center they move an amazing number of people very quickly.  Having basically an unlimited number of buses can move many more people than what a fixed tracked system could do.  Imagine getting out of a game and waiting for the people mover, speed is limited, number of cars are limited.  The only limiting factor for the buses is how fast they can load.  Atlantas Marta system has feeder lines from all over the city heading to the stadium not just one.

Im gonna take a swing at this.....

10 weekends? Why do some citizens(not just civil42806) act like the Jaguars is the ONLY thing that ever goes on in the Sports Complex?

Atlanta's Marta system is a great example man, since Im very familiar with the Atl Events Station. Ill break it down. If Jacksonville had a Sports Complex Station it would only have 2 feeders vs Atls 4 feeders. ATL just has the Georgia Dome, Phillips Arena, a Covention Center & Olympic Park at that stop. Where as Jacksonville has 5 major destinations. Atl would get more biz only because of the amount of train stations on the line, not because of the stop itself.

Back to Jax. The Shuttle bus cost 5 dollars to an from. Skyway is a dollar to an from, lets say they change the fare to 1 dollar 1 way... then its 2 dollars to & from Saves the fans 3 bux. All those Drivers Im sure would like to have their sunday off, You can tell by the way JTA does biz on sundays, plus Stephan Dares bus topic lol. If they had a choice theyd want to be off, let the robot (Skyway) do the work. Southsiders would go to Kings Ave/Jackson Square and Westsiders would go to the convention center. After the game guess what?? Big money for Marks, Dive Bar, TSI, Ivy Club and whatever else ends up there on Bay. Maybe even the Hemmng Plaza places may see the easy dollar signs with a direct connect. The Skyway would be a reason to hang downtown instead of going home. And this is just adding a east line NO Riverside or Springfield Station.

You say 10 weeks, I say 8 Jag games (i dont count preseason), plus the Suns weekend games (Suns draw well for AA, out of 30 AA teams Suns usually rank in the top , plus the concerts, plus the Fair, plus FL-GA weekend, plus the Metro Park events, plus all the people that work on Bay Street & around other Skyway Stations on the line, ...do you still see 10 weeks of service? Honestly Civil do you still see 10 weeks?

[JeffreyS]

And the Brooklyn platform.

[Ocklawaha]

Actually thats not my complaint, my complaint is 2.5 miles cost 184, 000, 000 dollars. Lets look at how the expansion will Go.

City will establish two departments initially, 1st the department of cost overun, 2nd the department of excuses and distraction.  These departments need to get started early to ensure they compliment each other. 

Then of course the department of planning is created they will design the actual course of the new lines.  This department consists of many subdepartments

  1.  subdepartment of screwing poor folks.  They will try to ensure that the route hits as many clusters of low income folks property.  After all these folks don't understand emminent domain and can't afford a lawyer.  The peasants.

Ooh, being a former long haired anti-establishment leaping gnome, do I detect a hint of class hate here? Or are you just pissed off because it's cheaper to build projects through rotting shotgun houses rather then Modis type buildings? I don't like building anything through anybodys home, but if it can't be helped and must be done for the greater good of the whole community. That sounds rough and hateful, but it a matter of fact that people have to go somewhere and the auto era seems to be crashing around us.

2.  Subdepartment of City fathers and high rollers.  there job is to examine the route and determine if it approaches any property that the city fathers and high rollers or there relatives own.  If so ensure that the route passes close enough so they can get a premium on there property.  After all they deserve it. Obviously this department and subdeparment of screwing poor folks have to interact to maximize their return

So is it the Skyway you hate, or is it anyone successful in their field? Could it be someone with education, degree, experience, long-term job security, someone that creates hundreds maybe thousands of jobs that others depend on is really who you are attacking? Why wouldn't you plan a transit system like the Skyway to pass the front door of something like Berkman or the Shipyards or St. James projects, of course you would. Not to do so would be irresponsible in the extreme. Would such a failure be cheered by you? Only you!

3.  Subdepartment of Homeless needs and requirements.  They are there to ensure that there are enough nooks and cranies in the design for adequate sleeping urinating and crapping to support our community.

Frankly homeless parks are an idea that isn't untried. With some success on the west coast, a park design with restrooms, showers and "climbing culverts" functioned as a fun place by day, and a guarded sleeping quarters by night. There were rules, no booze, clean up after yourself, use the restroom, etc... And it worked like a charm, very few were ever expelled long term. They were thankful that someone at City Hall thought of them. I felt the same way.

4.  Subdepartment of pillar support location.  You job is to locate all pillars and support to ensure maximum inconvience with existing businesses and residents.  Just ask Friedmans jewlers downtown,  or wait you cant The pillar immediately in front of his entrance put the downtown store our of business.

Me thinks this a slight stretch, certainly the pillar could play into it, but downtown retail is too dead to bury with our cheap fill in the AM and empty in the early PM parking garages, and the punishing meters. We killed it, the Skyway certainly didn't, if anything, it might be a part of the reason for the Landing, Convention Center and the Omni. Track comes in pre-determined sections for economy, now we could spend another 30,000 or so for a few custom pieces to cover the entry to a downtown coffee shop, but wouldn't that come under department of spending like fools?

5.  Subdepartment of Station location.  Since this is going to be fixed elevated system, particularly important for those once every 40 year floods,  the placement of the fixed stations is critical, since once they are built you stuck with them.   Now you might think that it would be simple to see where people live and might want to go and build the station there.  If so you have no vision whatsoever.  First this department needs to work closely with Subdepartment of City fathers and high rollers.  These people may own land they want to develop, so you may have to relocate a station near them.  Now of course your an Urban Planner, people may think they know where the want to live shop and eat, but thats only because they don't have your degree and urbane sense, I bet most of them shop at wal-mart for gods sake.  So you need to ensure that the stations are located in a proper urban development setting, unless otherwise dictated by the subdepartment of city fathers and high rollers.  Heavy interaction with the department of excuses and distraction is highly recommended.

Amazing insight, you are exactly right, you build where the big developments and big crowds go. If we get a downtown highrise mall with a Saks 5Th or Nordstroms, then you build to it or through it. Just follow the crowds. Anything within 2-3 blocks is Skyway influenced development. Fixed systems more then double ridership over other systems, often with increases of 150% or more, so yes, you WANT a fixed system. Next, your occasional flood is not why it is elevated. Monorails by their nature cannot be crossed by streets at grade, keeping them in the air also works to keep them above the traffic and out of trouble. Their safety record world wide (and they've been around as long as railroads) is incredible.

So now your system is built at a cost of probably 100,000,000 a mile or more.  You can now disband all your departments except for department of excuses and distraction, in fact a signifcant expansion of this department is recommended, a mayoral aide my be needed.

The original system was a misguided "gift" from the government to 3 cities, Detroit, Jacksonville and Miami. Both of the other cities went on to finish their crippled systems, we reinvested to convert ours to monorail, to make it a bit more regional if the need ever came up. Translation: We planned ahead, amazing as that sounds. Miami went on to feed their system with metro-rail and tri-rail, Detroit built streetcars and corridor trains... we frankly dropped the ball as our politicians ran and hid from folks like yourself that refuse to think this process through.

Now the subdepartment of thank you notes they are to send out picture postcard of the system to everyone in the US thanking them for there contribution, because the only way this is going to happen is with federal funds.

The department of excuses and distractions will have to kick in to explain why the ridership is 10% of the expected  and why in the world did you put a  station there?

The department of scheduling, ensure that the route is never running for special events on weekends and nights, if the event is not in the normal operating hours of the system.  What do people expect a system working when they want to use it.  Obviously none of them are operating the system so what would they know.

The department of future apologies, when our grandkids are blowing the damn thing up, this department will send them a note  "we thought it was a good idea at the time"

These last three are "classic Jacksonville", but it has to stop. We can't get lower ridership out of expansion, modest as it would be on my map. Not running the system for special events, not buying the center cars (which we own the rights to - with stations built for 4-6 car sets). JTA employees need to be using the system, in fact system passes for every employee and family should be a perk. As for blowing it up, not a chance. I'll agree with you that it should have NEVER BEEN BUILT, we should have gone with Light Rail in 1980. But we have it, and better to make Lemonaide out of our Lemon. Therte was a button going around the USDOT in the 1970's that said simply "MIX YOUR MODES", since that time, this is a sure formula for success. Currently we have buses and buses, and 1/4 of a Skyway. Toss in non-competetive streetcars, LRT, Commuter Rail, BRT, Quality Bus and watch us join the world rank of transit savvy cities. Frankly the old Skyway, a system built over my loud protests, one that we backed into... might turn out to be a golden gift.

OCKLAWAHA
BTW, the "Brainless robot" trains, are operated by humans from a large railroad traffic control room just like CSX or FEC, it's located in the Skyway building across from the TU. So believe it or not, if it's running...JTA is at work and big brother is watching!

[Radio Talk Show Host]

your kidding right

The skyway is the exact example of why government not motivated by profit can't do anything correct

There is no single aspect of the skyway that any entity motivated by profit or customer satisfaction would have implemented, size of cars, number of cars, number of rails, selection of places to originate trip, selection of places to stop, whether or not there is a market for anyone to go anyplace the skyway goes.

25 some years after maybe you can make an argument how no longer how some aspect of this is no longer an absolute total failure 

but until you can find someone/anyone who would buy it for a dime operate it and expect it to make a profit it spits in the face of the principles out capitalist society is founded on.

I would be less harsh if there wasn't 5000 other things that Jacksonville needed to spend money on. 




quote author=Charleston native link=topic=3063.msg37383#msg37383 date=1219806811]
I'll elaborate more on this tomorrow, since I have to go to bed, but after going on Ock's blog earlier this summer, I'm convinced that the Skyway should be extended to all of the destinations on the map...as long as the current monorail is upgraded to a larger set of cars to carry more people. In addition, extensions should be made to the airport and the convention center; unless another convention center closer to the core location is built.

Again, I'll elaborate more on this subject tomorrow, but if you have doubts, go to Ock's blog and watch the video that shows a typical ride on the train. That video convinced me...Skyway can be an awesome bridge to the future for mass transit in Jax.
[/quote]

[civil42806]

"Ooh, being a former long haired anti-establishment leaping gnome, do I detect a hint of class hate here? Or are you just pissed off because it's cheaper to build projects through rotting shotgun houses rather then Modis type buildings? I don't like building anything through anybodys home, but if it can't be helped and must be done for the greater good of the whole community. That sounds rough and hateful, but it a matter of fact that people have to go somewhere and the auto era seems to be crashing around us."

LOL me an anti establishment types, yep tell that to the marines   Give up your house to the Greater Good you peasant!!   Always remember capitalize Greater Good.

"So is it the Skyway you hate, or is it anyone successful in their field? Could it be someone with education, degree, experience, long-term job security, someone that creates hundreds maybe thousands of jobs that others depend on is really who you are attacking? Why wouldn't you plan a transit system like the Skyway to pass the front door of something like Berkman or the Shipyards or St. James projects, of course you would. Not to do so would be irresponsible in the extreme. Would such a failure be cheered by you? Only you!"

Yep I'm the only one that thinks the skyway was an enormous waste of money, after all the only reason the berkman plaza was built was because of th skyway, and lord knows the shipyards project was an enormouts success because of it and look at how cheap the stations were.  Oh wait.........

'Frankly homeless parks are an idea that isn't untried. With some success on the west coast, a park design with restrooms, showers and "climbing culverts" functioned as a fun place by day, and a guarded sleeping quarters by night. There were rules, no booze, clean up after yourself, use the restroom, etc... And it worked like a charm, very few were ever expelled long term. They were thankful that someone at City Hall thought of them. I felt the same way. "

OOOOOKKKKAAAYYYYYY

"Me thinks this a slight stretch, certainly the pillar could play into it, but downtown retail is too dead to bury with our cheap fill in the AM and empty in the early PM parking garages, and the punishing meters. We killed it, the Skyway certainly didn't, if anything, it might be a part of the reason for the Landing, Convention Center and the Omni. Track comes in pre-determined sections for economy, now we could spend another 30,000 or so for a few custom pieces to cover the entry to a downtown coffee shop, but wouldn't that come under department of spending like fools? "

The idea that the Landing, convention center or the Omni are in any way shape or form a result of the skyway is delusional thinking at best  And we aren't talking about downtown anymore you want to extend this to san marco, brooklyn and god knows where else, I think a pillar immediately in front of deus aix and european street is just what the doctor ordered.  Hey how about in front of the bc bs buildeing.  And to answer your last question, YES.  Special design always increases the cost on anything.

"mazing insight, you are exactly right, you build where the big developments and big crowds go. If we get a downtown highrise mall with a Saks 5Th or Nordstroms, then you build to it or through it. Just follow the crowds. Anything within 2-3 blocks is Skyway influenced development. Fixed systems more then double ridership over other systems, often with increases of 150% or more, so yes, you WANT a fixed system. Next, your occasional flood is not why it is elevated. Monorails by their nature cannot be crossed by streets at grade, keeping them in the air also works to keep them above the traffic and out of trouble. Their safety record world wide (and they've been around as long as railroads) is incredible. "

Good lord man are you smoking?   Saks, Nordstroms downtown?  were grateful we just got a dollar store downtown.  and I don't mean that as a slam.  Any stores downtown should be welcome.   Anything within 2-3 blocks is influenced development?  Where is the development downtown now, I know it just needs to be expanded.  Apparently you don't share my skeptisism of urban planners, you missed the whole point.  No you don't want a fixed system you have no flexibility.  If your planners are wrong you have huge fixed location that are piss pots for the homeless.  In fact what would happen if a saks or nordstroms located downtown away from the beautiful 12 foot pillars and elevated train?  All of a sudden you have a fixed track that cost 100,000,000 a mile that doesn't run where you want it.  No if your the city you can insist that they accomodate the track but they might not like that.  That might just irritate the saks or nordstroms.  Even if they located where you want how do you convince the citizens of jax, that its a good idea to run an elevated track to this beautiful highrise mall with a rail system that starts at the convention center and might stop in san marco at the most optimistic. I know lets expand it more.

"The original system was a misguided "gift" from the government to 3 cities, Detroit, Jacksonville and Miami. Both of the other cities went on to finish their crippled systems, we reinvested to convert ours to monorail, to make it a bit more regional if the need ever came up. Translation: We planned ahead, amazing as that sounds. Miami went on to feed their system with metro-rail and tri-rail, Detroit built streetcars and corridor trains... we frankly dropped the ball as our politicians ran and hid from folks like yourself that refuse to think this process through. "

I wouldn't exactly use Detroit as a model for anything, the miami metro area may justify a metro, due to population density,  though thats doubtful.  Nothing in the Jacksonville area justifies the cost or expense of expanding this system.  There is only just so much money available to do so many things.  To divert hundreds of millions of dollars for this makes no sense to me.  If it was seriously proposed by the city, deconsolidation would have to be considered.  If downtown wanted it let them pay for it.

"hese last three are "classic Jacksonville", but it has to stop. We can't get lower ridership out of expansion, modest as it would be on my map. Not running the system for special events, not buying the center cars (which we own the rights to - with stations built for 4-6 car sets). JTA employees need to be using the system, in fact system passes for every employee and family should be a perk. As for blowing it up, not a chance. I'll agree with you that it should have NEVER BEEN BUILT, we should have gone with Light Rail in 1980. But we have it, and better to make Lemonaide out of our Lemon. Therte was a button going around the USDOT in the 1970's that said simply "MIX YOUR MODES", since that time, this is a sure formula for success. Currently we have buses and buses, and 1/4 of a Skyway. Toss in non-competetive streetcars, LRT, Commuter Rail, BRT, Quality Bus and watch us join the world rank of transit savvy cities. Frankly the old Skyway, a system built over my loud protests, one that we backed into... might turn out to be a golden gift."

Please those classic jacksonville won't stop.  Human nature is much more powerful than the sociology classes.  And to say since we built part we have to build more is nuts.  You have to justify dumping huge amounts  money because
"might turn out to be a golden gift" is not  a risk myself or just about anyone is willing to take.

[civil42806]

You say 10 weeks, I say 8 Jag games (i dont count preseason), plus the Suns weekend games (Suns draw well for AA, out of 30 AA teams Suns usually rank in the top Cool, plus the concerts, plus the Fair, plus FL-GA weekend, plus the Metro Park events, plus all the people that work on Bay Street & around other Skyway Stations on the line, ...do you still see 10 weeks of service? Honestly Civil do you still see 10 weeks?

Yes I do, simply because there is more than enough parking at the suns and the colosium for the other events to accomodate those people.   People aren't going to park downtown if they know that they can pay 5 bucks in the city parking lot and then walk to the stadium.

Back to Jax. The Shuttle bus cost 5 dollars to an from. Skyway is a dollar to an from, lets say they change the fare to 1 dollar 1 way... then its 2 dollars to & from Saves the fans 3 bux. All those Drivers Im sure would like to have their sunday off, You can tell by the way JTA does biz on sundays, plus Stephan Dares bus topic lol. If they had a choice theyd want to be off, let the robot (Skyway) do the work. Southsiders would go to Kings Ave/Jackson Square and Westsiders would go to the convention center. After the game guess what?? Big money for Marks, Dive Bar, TSI, Ivy Club and whatever else ends up there on Bay. Maybe even the Hemmng Plaza places may see the easy dollar signs with a direct connect. The Skyway would be a reason to hang downtown instead of going home. And this is just adding a east line NO Riverside or Springfield Station.

Actually the shuttle cost 7 dollars now from the convention center.   If you think that after 5 hours "in most cases" that all the fans are going to stand in line waiting for the people mover, then rush in and spend hit the clubs afterwards, I don't think you've been to many jaguar or sporting events.  maybe after concerts you'd be right or your a lot younger than I am.

[Ocklawaha]

Civil, go to :

http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

Check out the first article, Jacksonville Transit Truth...

Then you'll hear an honest opinion of the whole plan.

OCKLAWAHA

[Lunican]

Here is a direct link to the article:
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/2008/08/jacksonville-regional-rapid-transit.html

[Ocklawaha]

your kidding right

The skyway is the exact example of why government not motivated by profit can't do anything correct

There is no single aspect of the skyway that any entity motivated by profit or customer satisfaction would have implemented, size of cars, number of cars, number of rails, selection of places to originate trip, selection of places to stop, whether or not there is a market for anyone to go anyplace the skyway goes.

25 some years after maybe you can make an argument how no longer how some aspect of this is no longer an absolute total failure 

but until you can find someone/anyone who would buy it for a dime operate it and expect it to make a profit it spits in the face of the principles out capitalist society is founded on.

I would be less harsh if there wasn't 5000 other things that Jacksonville needed to spend money on. 

Sorry but the question on the thread is

"WHERE DOES THE SKYWAY GO FROM HERE?"

I'm not in here to debate a terrible waste back in the 1980's. What I see is a change in Transit and a change in Jacksonville. At least finished to some degree such as a stadium area parking lot, would allow commuters to flow over the bridges and PARK IT. Then the city could sell off some of the downtown properties and get them on the tax rolls. Anyone as important as a radio talk show host, should realize that Mass Transit anywhere is a service, not a "for profit" enterprise. It goes with city parks, librarys and public works, you don't have much quality of life without it because you ground the very people that provide the services that make a great city great. You simply must have transit. Jacksonville has out grown it's bus system, and is finally caught up to and passed the Skyway.

Todays transit is a lot more about attracting big ticket venues, blue chip corporate HQ and lot's of TOD developments "live-work-play", type places. Sure you don't make anything on the transit, but a great Skyway built on the bones of what we already have, mixed with commuter rail/streetcar would be a combination that a large company would have to go to New York, or San Francisco to match.

So the question remains...

Where does the Skyway go from here?

Kings Avenue Station?
Brooklyn Park?
Blue Cross-DuPont-Everbank?
Atlantic at the FEC in San Marco?
Courthouse?
Ritz?
Shands via Davis?
Stadium? (which one or district wide)?
How about a larger garage at Phillip Randolph and Arlington Expressway as a mini-transit-center?

WHERE? Let's get this thread back on the mono-RAIL.

OCKLAWAHA

[Lunican]

http://www.youtube.com/v/EMmSJraA6qM

[Ocklawaha]

So Charleston Native? Where did you go? Don't tell me you got lost on the Skyway!

I can't believe we don't all have some opinion on how to constructively FIX THE DAMN THING! Keeping in mind no one will seriously take "blow it up" as an answer, likewise, none should take "leave it alone" as an answer either, in fact "leave it alone," is a NON-ANSWER!

OCKLAWAHA

[Charleston native]

So Charleston Native? Where did you go? Don't tell me you got lost on the Skyway!

I can't believe we don't all have some opinion on how to constructively FIX THE DAMN THING! Keeping in mind no one will seriously take "blow it up" as an answer, likewise, none should take "leave it alone" as an answer either, in fact "leave it alone," is a NON-ANSWER!

OCKLAWAHA

My bad! Sorry about that Ock. I've been tied up with some other threads, interviews for jobs, and work, so I've been busy. I want to give a substantial analysis and opinion on Skyway, even a rebuttal to Talk Show Host's response. I'll try to get it done later today or tonight.

[tufsu1]

So Charleston Native? Where did you go? Don't tell me you got lost on the Skyway!

I can't believe we don't all have some opinion on how to constructively FIX THE DAMN THING! Keeping in mind no one will seriously take "blow it up" as an answer, likewise, none should take "leave it alone" as an answer either, in fact "leave it alone," is a NON-ANSWER!

OCKLAWAHA

My bad! Sorry about that Ock. I've been tied up with some other threads, interviews for jobs, and work, so I've been busy. I want to give a substantial analysis and opinion on Skyway, even a rebuttal to Talk Show Host's response. I'll try to get it done later today or tonight.

Let me suggest that you stop worrying so much about the polical forums...al least until you get a job 

[Charleston native]

Dadgummit, I know I'm a political junkie. Argh! Back to work...

BTW, this should be a testament to your city and your hospitals: I've been sending my resume like crazy to different organizations around Jax, only to find out there are usually 100-300 applications for ONE job.   Everybody wants to live and work there, you guys. You must be doing something right!

[thelakelander]

Back by popular demand, the FINISH THE SKYWAY MAP...

Where do we go from here?


Skyway lines in Blue, extensions shown in RED. Major bus/rail/streetcar interchanges in black.

Question, should the line go on to Jackson Square?
Question, the original plan called for a line to Shands, in light of the new Courthouse, would a new branch up through that area, LaVilla, and up Davis to Shands work? Commuter Rail West of I-95 and Skyway east, meeting behind Shands with bus and Streetcar?

What say you?

OCKLAWAHA

Here's my two cents....

Question, should the line go on to Jackson Square?

No.  Because of costs, if the goal is to have commuter rail running down the FEC line, its cheaper to just have Jackson Square's developers pay for an extra commuter rail stop (aka Caltrain style).  From that point, Jackson Square residents can take the commuter rail train to the Southbank or Prime Osborn to transfer to the Skyway.  Since Jackson Square foots the bill for their stop, service to that destination is not on the backs of the taxpayer.

Question, the original plan called for a line to Shands, in light of the new Courthouse, would a new branch up through that area, LaVilla, and up Davis to Shands work?

No.  If track is relayed on the S-Line for commuter rail, there would be a stop at Shands.  Its hard to make an argument of extending an elevated horizontal elevator, with rubber wheels to Shands, at the expense of transit improvements in other areas of the region.  However, I could see possibly a short extension north to First Street (roughly 3 or 4 blocks), assuming Hogan's Creek once again becomes Jacksonville's Central Park.

Commuter Rail West of I-95 and Skyway east, meeting behind Shands with bus and Streetcar?

Considering we have limited financial resources, I'd favor spending money to stretch improvements to several areas of town, as opposed to providing a single destination in Springfield with multiple layers fixed rail-based transit.

In the short term (10 to 15 years), I'd focus on getting commuter rail and a public/private streetcar starter line off the ground.  I would not even consider a funding a major skyway expansion before we have cheaper rail lines that stretch from the burbs to the downtown core to feed the thing with riders.  Now if we found a pot at the end of the rainbow, then expand it.  But if the cost to expand is at the expense of other transit priorities, I'd favor spending the money elsewhere.