JTA prepared to break ground on downtown transit hub

[thelakelander]

Regarding rail, they've applied for a federal grant to upgrade the rail infrastructure. If awarded, it will help freight congestion and pave the way for the return of passenger rail.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Question, that area with the tent and people on the grounds, is that just lipstick for the rendering or is that actually going to be a viable area? Just curious.

[thelakelander]

^That public square seems to be presented as a future phase. However, it does not appear that it is budgeted.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Thanks

[jaxlongtimer]

If one assumes that one day commuter trains will also pull into the Convention Center property, maybe they should have put all this on the same block as the convention center (closer to the rail r-o-w and lines) and extended the Skyway tracks into the CC's rear parking lot.  Commuter train users making transfers are going to have a bit of a walk to urban core transit with this plan.  A parking garage and/or other surrounding land could be used to replace the existing CC lot.

Also, is there any provision for taxi/uber/lyft/auto passenger/handicapped drop-off lanes?  Some people making connections to buses, in particular, may want to transfer here.

[Ocklawaha]

Much improved but still no cigar from me.

1. The plan ignores the historic station which could be repurposed with demolition of most of the convention center box (added behind the historic station).

2. The convention center is perfectly sized for a city the size of Palatka, thus it is disfunctional.

3. The new JRTC still follows the FDOT in the convoluted idea that a multimodal transportation hub is a collection of stations, one for each mode clustered near each other (Miami Multimodal) rather than a true multimodal hub with a single common waiting room, ticketing and restaurant area with separate gates and platforms for the. Ariosto modes (Milwaukee Intermodal Station).

4. Passengers moving from Amtrak or Brightline to JTA, Greyhound, Megabus or Skyway will have to drag their bags up to 3 city blocks, with ramps, escalators and various concourses just to find the right waiting transfer area.

5. Without Brightline or Amtrak as integral included units we will not fully realize the economic synergy of  new rail development and make commuter rail possibilities fade due to isolation.

At best I predict a beautifully disfunctional office and Station complex permanently hobbled by isolation and desolation.

[thelakelander]

It would be great if a solution for moving the convention center was in place, that could have resulted in Greyhound being moved south of Bay Street. Unfortunately, JTA has no control over the future of the convention center or the money and land to move it. Hopefully, we'll get some better clarification on the future of the convention center over the next few months.


Aerial of LA's Union Station from wikipedia

However, from a transit perspective, it's a 0.22 mile walk from potential commuter rail/Amtrak/Brightline rail platforms to the Greyhound terminal. Everything else (BRT, local bus, Skyway, etc.) is located between those two. Using LA's Union Station for comparison's sake, it's a 0.23 mile walk from the grand lobby to the bus platforms, with LRT/Amtrak/commuter rail rail platforms in the middle. However, the closest Greyhound terminal is 1.7 mile drive down Alameda Street. I also recall, taking BRT to Union Station and getting dropped off next to a freeway. To get to Union Station's grand lobby from the closest BRT stop, I had to walk the perimeter of the Union Station site and through a small parking lot to get to the grand lobby. In this case, the current JRTC is more consolidated than LA's Union Station (a great station, IMO).


2015 construction image of Brooklyn Riverside development at Lee Street viaduct.

Also, factors beyond JTA's and the center's design will most likely not result in it being isolated. New development (Brooklyn Riverside) mushrooming in Brooklyn is literally on the other side of McCoys Creek already. Vesctor is currently building infill affordable housing (Lofts at LaVilla) directly across the Lee Street.


November 2016 construction pic of Lofts at LaVilla site

Vestcor is also planning a second infill multifamily housing project just northeast at Lee and Adams. Beneficial Communities is planning to break ground on Houston Street Manor at Houston and Jefferson Streets as well. The mix of cheap publicly owned vacant land and Brooklyn's popularity has high potential to introduce more urban development on the underutilized parcels adjacent to the JRTC.


Rendering of Houston Street Manor

While it would be great if the convention center were gone and the entire JRTC could be built south of Bay Street, even in its current configuration, it won't be isolated. In fact, its more likely that a couple thousand new downtown residents could be living within a couple blocks of the site before the JRTC is completed in 2019.

[thelakelander]

Also, is there any provision for taxi/uber/lyft/auto passenger/handicapped drop-off lanes?  Some people making connections to buses, in particular, may want to transfer here.

The Kiss and Ride area is located next to Greyhound at Forsyth and Stuart Streets.

[ricker]

Much improved but still no cigar from me.

While a quarter mile walk is not long or far, and many new residents will improve the barren moonscape, the canon of unnecessary sprawl and duplication of space remains in this design.

What's the rush?
Why not wait to break ground until the Convention Center plan is also in place?

[thelakelander]

Rush? They've only been planning this thing for 20 years or so. Currently, the city has no plans to do anything with the convention center. Some believe Khan wants a convention center next to EverBank Field but if he doesn't pay for it, the Prime Osborn will be sitting where its at for at least another decade because it isn't a priority of the current administration.

Overall, the amount of duplication at this point is pretty limited. You don't need a grand lobby or waiting area to catch a city bus, BRT or the Skyway. BRT and local bus platforms are being build around a Skyway station that's been there since the 1980s. Such a use at that location makes sense regardless of if trains return to the terminal or not. 

The Greyhound station is the one you'd see some duplication, assuming rail returned to the terminal in a later phase. So we're literally talking about the Greyhound station being a block south instead of where it's proposed now. I'm not sure we can call that sprawl.  However, of all things to consider, it's not as bad of an issue as it was in the original plan and holding transit up for another 10-20 years to deal (or not deal) with the convention center doesn't seem worthwhile either.  Ultimately, if and when the convention center problem is resolved, fill that space with more rail, a relocated Greyhound station (even if Khan wants a convention center, it's still years down the road) or complementing transit oriented development.

[Gunnar]

Much improved but still no cigar from me.

While a quarter mile walk is not long or far,...

Not sure about this if it's during a thunderstorm or on a sunny humid summer day.

[thelakelander]

^I think some perspective is needed.

We're talking about walking inside of an air-conditioned concourse plus crossing Bay Street to access the Skyway, BRT and local buses.




It's basically the same walk you would have had in 1925 if your train arrived at the southernmost platform and you transferred to a streetcar on Bay Street or stopped by a restaurant, bar or hotel on Railroad Row.





The distance mentioned is the extreme........a walk from McCoys Creek to the Greyhound terminal.  Realistically, how many riders do we envision transferring between Greyhound and Brightline or Amtrak?

Also this is that 0.25 mile walk inside of LA's Union Station.  If you want to catch Greyhound, you'll need to uber or find another way to go over 1.5 miles down the street to that terminal.





You'll walk similar or longer lengths at many of the major transit hubs in cities like NYC, San Francisco, DC and Chicago as you move from the entrance at street level to your rail platform.

You'll also walk further to get to your gate at any airport of decent size:

[Gunnar]

^I think some perspective is needed.

We're talking about walking inside of an air-conditioned concourse plus crossing Bay Street to access the Skyway, BRT and local buses.

Ah, I see - thanks, that clears it up for me :-)

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, is it an improvement over the Vatican City sized ranch they first proposed? ABSOLUTELY! Is it still full of mindless duplication and extremes that could have been eliminated, ABSOLUTELY!

While I too feel like we've already blown 20 years on this 'coming soon' project, I don't see what another 5 or even 10 would hurt IF it got us a much more efficient and user friendly passenger experience and a more powerful development engine.

Since that is simply not going to happen what did they still do wrong and how could it be/have been corrected?

I think the FDOT/JTA concept that a Transportation Center is supposed to be a 'collection of stations' is just about the silliest notion I've ever heard of. Take Miami's Intermodal Center out by the MIA Airport, within the confines of the same properties there are separate stations, most with their own waiting, ticketing and baggage facilities and each located up those stairs, over on this side, over on that side, second level, end of concourse, turn left and pray you are still heading in the right direction. In a sense, a station for Tri-Rail, a station for Amtrak (a Headhouse type not unlike the original Jax Terml) a station for Miami-Dade Transit buses, a station for Greyhound, a station for the metro-mover, a station for Miami Metrorail.


Miami Intermodal Center.


Miami Intermodal Center.

Compare this with Milwaukee or Anaheim, both of which are dozen's of times simpler than this monstrosity. Both of these cities feature a single waiting room around which all of the traditional travel stores and eateries are clustered. In Milwaukee a single bus concourse on the west end of the station serves some 5-6 intercity bus companies, a single rail concourse (recently elevated and much improved to meet booming traffic demands and new trains) and neither concourse is more than 100' feet long. In Anaheim the City Buses wrap around the sides of the station and the single waiting room, a ticketing area for intercity buses and trains and a grand staircase to the concourse that shoots straight back to intercity buses and Amtrak, Coaster and Metrolink trains, maybe 300' feet in length. The density in the shared spaces are what makes the stations function.


Anaheim


Anaheim


Anaheim


Milwaukee Intermodal


Milwaukee's new rail concourse


Milwaukee Newest Intermodal Development Engine, and JTA is still chasing rainbows.

Just as you wouldn't want to go out to JIA and find Delta near the front of the parking garage, Southwest over by the main lobby and United down in baggage claim, each with their own ticketing, waiting rooms and other facilities. It would still be an international airport but not a very effective one.

I think what they should have done is shifted the entire main structure from the Skyway Station to the Prime Osborn with West Bay Street running right through below. This would shorten the rail concourse and the Greyhound boarding zones could line up west of the old Flagler Station 'ruins'. All ticketing, waiting, baggage claims could be housed in the main level (equal to the Skyway platforms) and the Admin building could be built above it all. This would open the current isolated Greyhound Station area for parking or TOD. It would be closer to the PO for conventions, and if and when Brightline gets to Jax, it would make the JRTC a more attractive development site. If the PO moves down the road, it puts the JRTC on both sides of Bay and closer to rail.

[thelakelander]

So, aside from JTA not having any control or ownership of the land south of Bay, you'd essentially save 1/2 block (shifting Greyhound) but significantly increase the capital costs (building over Bay Street) and the complexitiy of pulling the project off because much of the land needed is not owned by the city or JTA.

I'm not saying Milwaukee (btw, where is MCTS's main bus hub?) and Anaheim ($185 million to construct) aren't nice intermodal centers.  I'm just saying what the JRTC has consolidated into is sufficient enough and at a decent price point to implement, to not risk waiting another 10-20 years or so of doing nothing in hopes of a slightly better configuration that may never come to fruition.