New life for Berkman II? Owners seeking Commercial CBD Rezone

[RattlerGator]

$36 million ? ? ? ? What type of experience does this developer have in pulling off what's in the renderings? Let's just hope we aren't the circus act.

Come on, Ennis. Be happy. Not everything has to be density, density, density !!!

https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article203727324.html

Looks as though they have experience, success, and . . . did I hear this right . . . they want to work with a group that builds a Margaritaville out at the Beaches ? ? ?

Man, Big Duval is booming!

[KenFSU]

A water park and a ferris wheel?

Hmmmm, not sure what to think of this.

The water park language they're using is a bit of a misnomer.

It's not a ticketed public water park, it's a fancier pool system for hotel guests.

The former is a public benefit that potentially draws more locals downtown, so the incentives are slightly easier to rationalize.

For the latter, we'd be publicly subsidizing a private amenity.

Either way, it sounds like the project has the DIA's support, and even though the incentives sound insane on paper,

[Dolph1975]

Family resort w/water park?  Can't help but think about Great Wolf Lodge.  Seems like an "outside of the box" location though.

https://www.greatwolf.com/

[Captain Zissou]

Come on, Ennis. Be happy. Not everything has to be density, density, density !!!

https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article203727324.html

Looks as though they have experience, success, and . . . did I hear this right . . . they want to work with a group that builds a Margaritaville out at the Beaches ? ? ?

Man, Big Duval is booming!

Can't tell if you're just trolling, but I get so triggered every time your fingers hit the keyboard.  This might be a cool project for the beach, but this doesn't belong downtown.  We shouldn't be using blocks of our riverfront for a private water park.

[I-10east]

I'm not wild about the 'resort-esque' water park idea either. It sounds way to suburban to be DT. The first thing that comes to mind is Nocatee.

[thelakelander]

$36 million ? ? ? ? What type of experience does this developer have in pulling off what's in the renderings? Let's just hope we aren't the circus act.

Come on, Ennis. Be happy. Not everything has to be density, density, density !!!

Lol, I didn't say anything about density. The proposal actually packs a lot of stuff on three acres. I'm just floored by the amount of subsidies requested.

[jaxjaguar]

Looking at the proposal on the daily record, I'm fine with it as long as the Riverwalk is still extended to the stadium district and publicly accessible. Downtown needs more things to do for out of towners. This looks like a good way to bring more families downtown rather than business men which I think is great.

[Dapperdan]

A water park and a ferris wheel?

Hmmmm, not sure what to think of this.

I have a better idea ... stay with me on this .. hot dog carts on the Main Street Bridge...

On a  positive note, if this does go through, there would actually be a reason to have a gondola system cross the river , especially if the Convention Center is build a the sports complex.

[CityLife]

Water park resorts are typically found in places not close to beaches, like the northeast and midwest, and many of them are indoor so that they can provide water activities in the winter. Not sure this really solves a problem, since Florida does not have those issues. Orlando for instance has a few water park resorts, and I'm pretty sure they are all dumps.

That said, if these developers build a DT Jacksonville/Florida caliber resort (not Mississippi) I could see this doing well and bringing a lot of people Downtown that normally wouldn't visit, particularly families. The incentive package is somewhat deceiving, since $20 million of the quoted $36 million is a property tax abatement over a 20 year period. Not like the property is generating much in property taxes now. In fact it has probably resulted in the reduction of taxable value of other properties Downtown. The City is only on the hook for $4.85 million up front. There is an additional $3.5 million for 200 public parking spaces at $17,500 a space, which is below the average cost of construction per space in garages. Presumably the $8.25 million of performance incentives are based on nights booked, meaning the City will recoup more than this in bed and sales taxes from the resort and its guests. Really, the City is not taking a huge risk here.

As much as the inner snob in me hates this project in theory, Downtown's redevelopment can't be solely built on Avocado Toast and Craft Cocktails. I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.

[KenFSU]

I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.

This was my first thought when I saw the rendering.

We give away two acres of Shipyards property and subsidize rides and a ferris wheel, but what happens when a hurricane rolls through and the storm surge brings it all down.

Do we just not rebuild, like the rides at the beach after Dora?

Do we stare at the wreckage for two years waiting for FEMA money to roll in.

Does the land revert back to the city if the rides aren't successful and cease operation?

[Dapperdan]

Just saw a news blurb it was approved unanimously as is.

[Tacachale]

Water park resorts are typically found in places not close to beaches, like the northeast and midwest, and many of them are indoor so that they can provide water activities in the winter. Not sure this really solves a problem, since Florida does not have those issues. Orlando for instance has a few water park resorts, and I'm pretty sure they are all dumps.

That said, if these developers build a DT Jacksonville/Florida caliber resort (not Mississippi) I could see this doing well and bringing a lot of people Downtown that normally wouldn't visit, particularly families. The incentive package is somewhat deceiving, since $20 million of the quoted $36 million is a property tax abatement over a 20 year period. Not like the property is generating much in property taxes now. In fact it has probably resulted in the reduction of taxable value of other properties Downtown. The City is only on the hook for $4.85 million up front. There is an additional $3.5 million for 200 public parking spaces at $17,500 a space, which is below the average cost of construction per space in garages. Presumably the $8.25 million of performance incentives are based on nights booked, meaning the City will recoup more than this in bed and sales taxes from the resort and its guests. Really, the City is not taking a huge risk here.

As much as the inner snob in me hates this project in theory, Downtown's redevelopment can't be solely built on Avocado Toast and Craft Cocktails. I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.

Yeah, the idea itself isn't as crazy as it may seem. Still, those tax incentives are pretty steep compared to other things we could be incenting.

[RattlerGator]

Can't tell if you're just trolling, but I get so triggered every time your fingers hit the keyboard.  This might be a cool project for the beach, but this doesn't belong downtown.  We shouldn't be using blocks of our riverfront for a private water park.

I never come here to troll.

If you get triggered when my fingers hit the keyboard, good. The slavish takes on here can be amazing. The bitching and moaning and insisting what is and is not proper for downtown locations is off-the-charts insular. You may not care about that. Well and good. It's a message board, right? Need you live in a trigger-free world ? ? ? One with density, density, density perhaps ? ? ?

I'm genuinely curious, Zissou. Who the hell are you to say what is and is not proper for downtown? And no, I don't give a damn what your professional position may or may not be. Because it's irrelevant. We *should* be using blocks of our riverfront for projects that add to our city and help to bring people downtown. This project appears to do that. I suspect it's going to have broad support in town.

But here on *this* board?

Well, your comment on what belongs downtown and what doesn't speaks to your limited vision (at least when it comes to this interesting project). Maybe they make this happen, maybe they don't. But I like it.

The density, density, density line was a (I thought, and still think) a good-natured jab at Ennis. Jacksonville is a unique city; it's not remotely Memphis (another jab at Ennis) but someone proposes something very interesting and unique -- and you can be certain of the responses here. Forced to acknowledge the undeniable uniqueness, and the intrigue of the project (people who previously might likely have insisted NOTHING like this could ever be viable or even proposed for Jacksonville -- maybe, though, in Greenville, Greenville, Greenville!), and it's all . . . man, oh man; those incentives !!!

Sweet Jesus.

[thelakelander]

LMAO!

[jaxnyc79]

As cringe-worthy and expensive as I find this project to be, I suppose it does add another notch to Downtown's proverbial belt as the entertainment pulse of the region, a designation it has lost or is close to losing because of St. Johns Town Center.  If downtown ends up with the equivalent of an Xtreme Action Sports on its waterfront, an attached hotel, and proximity to nearby large-scale sports and concert venues, it's a step in a positive direction.  Plenty of thought should be given to the principle of integrating the elements of this project with the streetscape on Bay Street.  It's very easy to imagine this as a long wall of additional dead-space, with the hustle and bustle of amusements hidden from view and on the other side of a garage behemoth.