Opinion: 4 Reasons to Vote Yes on Pension Referendum

[Metro Jacksonville]

Opinion: 4 Reasons to Vote Yes on Pension Referendum





Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-aug-opinion-4-reasons-to-vote-yes-on-pension-referendum

[Adam White]

I'll be honest - I'm only so familiar with this issue. But it would seem to me that people are going to have to bite the bullet and accept a tax. The city has a responsibility to fund the pensions and that is going to have to be sorted by the taxpayer.

I think a property tax increase makes more sense, as the impact would be seen sooner - but the sales tax is probably the 'fairest' and most palatable option. Although no one really likes to pay taxes, they are necessary.

All that aside - what is the outcome if this issue isn't addressed? This is a serious question. Is it a situation whereby these employees just don't get a pension? Or would it be funded by some other source (the state or something)?

[Rob68]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

[Adam White]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

[camarocane]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Paraphrasing from a town hall meeting with Mayor Curry, the only other alternative would be to drastically cut back city spending in other ways. Cutting funding from libraries, parks & rec, and patrol officers all were mentioned.

Is it safe to assume he would halt all city functions before implementing any new tax? Maybe. Is it safe to assume he's blowing hot air up the collective asses of Jaxons? Could be a possibility as well.

[strider]

Let's forget the idea that this is doing exactly what got us here to begin with...kicking the proverbial can down the road.  Let's instead look at a couple of realities.  Where is it anywhere stated by this administration that this is a guaranteed thing, that the unions will do exactly what this plan calls for? Even by getting everyone to vote yes, there is no certainty that this whole expenditure of time, money and political capital will not be for nada, zip, squat.  I have come to realize two distinct possibilities.  One that this gives a lot of power to those unions to get something else that will cost us even more down the road or the administration already knows what it will take to get the unions to agree and it is not pretty.  Both scenarios leave me with the impressions that this administration is being anything but honest about this and that there will still be a tax increase.

And lets look at the concept that this tax can only be used to pay on the pension debt.  OK, let's assume everything goes more or less to plan and we now have the future sales tax set to pay that debt.  Can this future tax be leverage to pay the current payments?  Will that increase the future debt even more?  And what exactly will the "freed up" funds be used for?  Will it actually be used to help us tax payers?  Or will it be somehow given away to those fine citizens that donated a million or so to get this passed?  Because while the sales tax has to be used for only paying on the pension, there is no such restrictions on the other funds "freed up" by the sales tax.  Do you as an informed resident trust this City Council and this Administration to do the right things here and not continue unnecessary give-a-ways with what will be very expensive money?

All the other possible funding sources to pay down the pension debt will certainly, at least on the surface, hurt us tax payers.  Increased taxes always will hurt someone.  Unfortunately for us, this half baked pension sales tax idea may do the same damage anyway.

So the real issue seems to be: We the people being asked to vote for this simply don't know what will happen if this plan is passed or, for that matter,  even what the plan truly is.  And yet, to pass something this important, shouldn't we?  Perhaps more importantly, shouldn't our elected leaders asking us to pass it?

[Tacachale]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Paraphrasing from a town hall meeting with Mayor Curry, the only other alternative would be to drastically cut back city spending in other ways. Cutting funding from libraries, parks & rec, and patrol officers all were mentioned.

Is it safe to assume he would halt all city functions before implementing any new tax? Maybe. Is it safe to assume he's blowing hot air up the collective asses of Jaxons? Could be a possibility as well.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Whether or not the police and fire fighters should have pensions, they do have them by legally binding contract with the city. Compromises are available, but by and large the city is obligated to pay people by that contract. Even if we could somehow get out of this, it would take many years and a lot of money. By then we'd be in a much worse position than if we just pay what we owe. And that's besides the fact that it would make it much more difficult to recruit and retain qualified people.

[Adam White]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Paraphrasing from a town hall meeting with Mayor Curry, the only other alternative would be to drastically cut back city spending in other ways. Cutting funding from libraries, parks & rec, and patrol officers all were mentioned.

Is it safe to assume he would halt all city functions before implementing any new tax? Maybe. Is it safe to assume he's blowing hot air up the collective asses of Jaxons? Could be a possibility as well.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Whether or not the police and fire fighters should have pensions, they do have them by legally binding contract with the city. Compromises are available, but by and large the city is obligated to pay people by that contract. Even if could somehow get out of this, it would take many years and a lot of money. By then we'd be in a much worse position than if we just pay what we owe. And that's besides the fact that it would make it much more difficult to recruit and retain qualified people.

Exactly - they were offered the pensions, right? It was a perk of the job. We can't change the rules now just because we don't agree with them. Change the rules going forward, sure.

[Adam White]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Paraphrasing from a town hall meeting with Mayor Curry, the only other alternative would be to drastically cut back city spending in other ways. Cutting funding from libraries, parks & rec, and patrol officers all were mentioned.

Is it safe to assume he would halt all city functions before implementing any new tax? Maybe. Is it safe to assume he's blowing hot air up the collective asses of Jaxons? Could be a possibility as well.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Whether or not the police and fire fighters should have pensions, they do have them by legally binding contract with the city. Compromises are available, but by and large the city is obligated to pay people by that contract. Even if could somehow get out of this, it would take many years and a lot of money. By then we'd be in a much worse position than if we just pay what we owe. And that's besides the fact that it would make it much more difficult to recruit and retain qualified people.

Exactly - they were offered the pensions, right? It was a perk of the job. We can't change the rules now just because we don't agree with them. Change the rules going forward, sure.

Yes, and the cops opted out of social security, so without the pensions, they have nothing.

I guess my way of looking at this is that the citizens have to take it on the chin and do what's right - even if the government was at fault. You can't change what has happened, right? So try to keep it from happening again and do the right thing now.

Edit: I am not necessarily endorsing Curry's plans - but I can't see a solution that would work that doesn't involve taxation. I think Tachacale's article made a pretty compelling case, though.

[Tacachale]

This is just kicking the can down the road. I dont support this at all. The cost is too high. We are just laying a huge burden on grandchildren. City employees shouldn't be promised something that's unreasonable and unreasonable is the name of the game at the good ole boy city hall of Jacksonville. The fist thing is the employees should be paying in as much as everyone else in the world does. Promises of guaranteed returns is just crazy..no one gets that promise. This city is one of the cheapest cities and it shows. We had a massive glut of money in the bank and it just slipped away. Its just rude to be asking for a sales tax increase when our mayor and council hand over  cash by the ton to a football team . Its irresponsible and un democratic. This bill wouldn't come due until the mayor is dead and cost too damn much...this scheme smells like poop.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Paraphrasing from a town hall meeting with Mayor Curry, the only other alternative would be to drastically cut back city spending in other ways. Cutting funding from libraries, parks & rec, and patrol officers all were mentioned.

Is it safe to assume he would halt all city functions before implementing any new tax? Maybe. Is it safe to assume he's blowing hot air up the collective asses of Jaxons? Could be a possibility as well.

So, what's the alternative? It's not the fault of the people with the pensions that the government dropped the ball. Surely sorting out the pensions and also taking action to ensure it doesn't happen again are the solution? If you can't tax people to cover the shortfall, how do you raise the money?

Whether or not the police and fire fighters should have pensions, they do have them by legally binding contract with the city. Compromises are available, but by and large the city is obligated to pay people by that contract. Even if could somehow get out of this, it would take many years and a lot of money. By then we'd be in a much worse position than if we just pay what we owe. And that's besides the fact that it would make it much more difficult to recruit and retain qualified people.

Exactly - they were offered the pensions, right? It was a perk of the job. We can't change the rules now just because we don't agree with them. Change the rules going forward, sure.

Yes, and the cops opted out of social security, so without the pensions, they have nothing.

I guess my way of looking at this is that the citizens have to take it on the chin and do what's right - even if the government was at fault. You can't change what has happened, right? So try to keep it from happening again and do the right thing now.

Edit: I am not necessarily endorsing Curry's plans - but I can't see a solution that would work that doesn't involve taxation. I think Tachacale's article made a pretty compelling case, though.

Thank you, Adam.

[Gunnar]

I am curious: How high would the pensions be and when are city employees eligible? Are they a percentage of the last gross salary, a specific amount...

[Adam White]

Except that I disagree that the citizens are taking it on the chin. They are paying for the services of one of the largest public safety operations in the country, services that they rely on every single day.

The best answer so far has been Alvin Brown's. An annual payout by JEA, after years of underpaying the city for the franchise, and a millage increase.

I had reservations about that plan because it capped the amount of money that the JEA contributes to the city.

The city has the right to 20% of the profits from the Utility.  For years they have been paying less that 5%.

Alvin's plan raised their contribution slightly, and paid off the plan fairly speedily.

The problem is that whatever profits the city doesn't take is doled out to the bondholders. That group includes several donor families represented by the old regime/curry administration.

This kick the can down the road measure doesn't pay the obligation fully but it add 1.5 billion dollars to the obligation.  All to spare a few families cuts to their bond dividends.

And it comes at the cost of tying up money that is supposed to be used for big building projects for the next 45 years.

And for what?  So that this miserable mayor can point to a fake 'success' in order to run for governor to replace the jackass he helped to get elected?

In my view its basically a way of getting the taxpayers of duval county to help pay for his political career.

And Im not for it.

Thanks for giving an alternative, Stephen. Was genuinely curious about what other options there are. Why hasn't the city taken its 20% of the JEA profit? That seems ludicrous.

As far as 'taking it on the chin' I meant that sometimes you gotta pay taxes to fix problems. But you're right - you have to pay for what services you expect. This is part of that, right?

[Jtetlak]

Honestly, I think if this sales tax increase happened right away I would probably be more on board with it. There are benefits to it, like having tourists dollars contributing, and being dedicated specifically to the pension, but kicking the can down the road for 15 years is not an option any more, not to mention it costs way more in the long run.

[vicupstate]

Honestly, I think if this sales tax increase happened right away I would probably be more on board with it. There are benefits to it, like having tourists dollars contributing, and being dedicated specifically to the pension, but kicking the can down the road for 15 years is not an option any more, not to mention it costs way more in the long run.

I concur. I am not opposed to it because it is Curry's plan or because it involves Sales Taxes. I am opposed for the reasons you stated very clearly.

Why not impose a 1/4 cent sales tax NOW.  What would be the overall difference by over the 50-60 years we are talking about?

[Tacachale]

Except that I disagree that the citizens are taking it on the chin. They are paying for the services of one of the largest public safety operations in the country, services that they rely on every single day.

The best answer so far has been Alvin Brown's. An annual payout by JEA, after years of underpaying the city for the franchise, and a millage increase.

I had reservations about that plan because it capped the amount of money that the JEA contributes to the city.

The city has the right to 20% of the profits from the Utility.  For years they have been paying less that 5%.

Alvin's plan raised their contribution slightly, and paid off the plan fairly speedily.

The problem is that whatever profits the city doesn't take is doled out to the bondholders. That group includes several donor families represented by the old regime/curry administration.

This kick the can down the road measure doesn't pay the obligation fully but it add 1.5 billion dollars to the obligation.  All to spare a few families cuts to their bond dividends.

And it comes at the cost of tying up money that is supposed to be used for big building projects for the next 45 years.

And for what?  So that this miserable mayor can point to a fake 'success' in order to run for governor to replace the jackass he helped to get elected?

In my view its basically a way of getting the taxpayers of duval county to help pay for his political career.

And Im not for it.

Thanks for giving an alternative, Stephen. Was genuinely curious about what other options there are. Why hasn't the city taken its 20% of the JEA profit? That seems ludicrous.

As far as 'taking it on the chin' I meant that sometimes you gotta pay taxes to fix problems. But you're right - you have to pay for what services you expect. This is part of that, right?

I (and many others) never thought the plans to tie pension reform to JEA money were realistic, or necessarily beneficial. As Stephen said, the first one involved JEA paying a big lump sum in exchange for lowering the annual contribution to the city in later years. Over the years, we'd have lost a lot more money from JEA than what they contributed. The second plan I didn't fully get, but I'm skeptical it could, or at least would be done without a rate increase, at which point, why not just use taxes? At the end of the day, the city spent 4 years on these plans, but couldn't pull them off. After spending all that time and resources, we have little to show for it, and meanwhile our debts have kept growing at unsustainable rates. If there's going to be reform at JEA, it would be better to do it separately from pension reform; the pension needs new revenue a lot sooner than we'll get sufficient money out of those other plans.